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Novichok In Salisbury: Secret Agents & Nerve Agents In Britain

PeteS said:
I doubt whether the government even regard it as their misfortune, but rather another bit of ammo to lob at those darned Ruskies.
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That's a bit of an over-simplification.

We don't seem to have anything against the Russian people.
Just against the dictator Putin and his regime.
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
That's a bit of an over-simplification.

We don't seem to have anything against the Russian people.
Just against the dictator Putin and his regime.
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That's what I meant. ;) My mates son in law became part of the brain drain from Russia and he has no desire to go back, partly being afraid of not being allowed back out of the country.
 
This latest incident illustrates the levels of paranoia/ ultra-sensitivity / near panic in Salisbury.
A homeless man, possibly drunk, high on something or with mental health issues, was spotted sitting on the ground (as homeless people are wont to do) and mumbling to himself, at a location near the Zizzi pizzeria where the Skripals had dined back in May. The police response was to close and cordon off the street. The guy was checked out in hospital, but showed no signs of Novichok poisoning. The public are (understandably) panicking and interpreting any vaguely odd behaviour as indicative of Novichok striking again.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-44812120
 
Curious, the source of the agent was in the house of the surviving victim.

Police believe they have located the source of the Novichok nerve agent that poisoned two people in Salisbury last month, Scotland Yard has announced.

Counter terrorism investigators said they had recovered a small glass bottle from the home of victim, Charlie Rowley, which had tested positive for Novichok.

Further tests on the bottle are now being carried out in the hope of establishing whether it is from the same batch of the nerve agent used to poison former Russian agent, Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia in March.

Filler Follows:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/07/13/police-find-source-novichok-poisoning-victims-house/
 
Yithian said:
Curious, the source of the agent was in the house of the surviving victim.

Police believe they have located the source of the Novichok nerve agent that poisoned two people in Salisbury last month, Scotland Yard has announced.

Counter terrorism investigators said they had recovered a small glass bottle from the home of victim, Charlie Rowley, which had tested positive for Novichok.

Further tests on the bottle are now being carried out in the hope of establishing whether it is from the same batch of the nerve agent used to poison former Russian agent, Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia in March.

Filler Follows:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/07/13/police-find-source-novichok-poisoning-victims-house/
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Surprising that it wasn't found earlier.
 
Found a couple of days ago according to the BBC at six o'clock.
 
Yithian said:
Give the police a break, won't you--they have a lot on their plate at the moment.

Some people have been posting really bad words on Twitter.
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Um, OK...
 
So they allegedly found the bottle in a park. But the outside of it presumably wasn't contaminated (either because exposure to the air gets rid of it. Or does it. Or the assassin was careful enough not to contaminate the outside of the bottle, but not careful enough not to just chuck it away in a park). And Dawn and Charlie didn't open it then, because the couple later went on to have lunch in amesbury with 200 people didn't they? So they couldn't have been wiping traces of the stuff about there or loads of people would be coming down ill, in fact half of salisbury and amesbury. So presumably they didn't open the bottle until later, at their house. And maybe Dawn stuck her fingers in the open bottle and then touched things round the house which is why she got iller and died while her partner was less ill?

So why the panic about the park in that case (a 'friend of a friend' was in the park and has been told to get rid of what she was wearing - I can't actually vouch for the accuracy of that) - how many vials are likely to be in there, you'd imagine precisely One, and that's now accounted for.

And why would you pick up a random vial of something and take it home.. it's not a cut glass victorian scent bottle is it. Surely it's just going to be some secure small vial that the assassin wouldn't contaminate themselves with. Oh I know these were scratter drug addicts and obviously they'll pick up anything just in case it's got drugs in. No that can't be right can it? Because you just can't imagine this looking like anything remotely interesting. And really, this assassin didn't even stick it in the bin in the park? (which would have been emptied many times since the Skripal poisoning). They just threw it under a bush??? Why wander all the way to the park if you're just going to chuck it on the floor. Why not just leave it wherever the skripals were poisoned (chuck it in the bushes in their garden, if we think it was at their home). Why this random park?

Also should we believe that the novichock was being carried around in such a vast quantity that there was some left over, enough to poison other people. Why not just use the lot at the Skripals - I mean you would wouldn't you, surely? The two people who were directly targeted to be killed, they didn't actually die although the assassin presumably made sure they got a proper big dose, and the person who has died just touched an effectively empty bottle.

It's still a bit weird. You've got to admit it.
 
Eponastill said:
So they allegedly found the bottle in a park. But the outside of it presumably wasn't contaminated (either because exposure to the air gets rid of it. Or does it. Or the assassin was careful enough not to contaminate the outside of the bottle, but not careful enough not to just chuck it away in a park). And Dawn and Charlie didn't open it then, because the couple later went on to have lunch in amesbury with 200 people didn't they? So they couldn't have been wiping traces of the stuff about there or loads of people would be coming down ill, in fact half of salisbury and amesbury. So presumably they didn't open the bottle until later, at their house. And maybe Dawn stuck her fingers in the open bottle and then touched things round the house which is why she got iller and died while her partner was less ill?

So why the panic about the park in that case (a 'friend of a friend' was in the park and has been told to get rid of what she was wearing - I can't actually vouch for the accuracy of that) - how many vials are likely to be in there, you'd imagine precisely One, and that's now accounted for.

And why would you pick up a random vial of something and take it home.. it's not a cut glass victorian scent bottle is it. Surely it's just going to be some secure small vial that the assassin wouldn't contaminate themselves with. Oh I know these were scratter drug addicts and obviously they'll pick up anything just in case it's got drugs in. No that can't be right can it? Because you just can't imagine this looking like anything remotely interesting. And really, this assassin didn't even stick it in the bin in the park? (which would have been emptied many times since the Skripal poisoning). They just threw it under a bush??? Why wander all the way to the park if you're just going to chuck it on the floor. Why not just leave it wherever the skripals were poisoned (chuck it in the bushes in their garden, if we think it was at their home). Why this random park?

Also should we believe that the novichock was being carried around in such a vast quantity that there was some left over, enough to poison other people. Why not just use the lot at the Skripals - I mean you would wouldn't you, surely? The two people who were directly targeted to be killed, they didn't actually die although the assassin presumably made sure they got a proper big dose, and the person who has died just touched an effectively empty bottle.

It's still a bit weird. You've got to admit it.
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Unless...Charlie is the assassin?
Dawn didn't know, found this vial he had lying about, thought it was perfume, then started dabbing it all over herself.
 
Eponastill said:
And why would you pick up a random vial of something and take it home.. it's not a cut glass victorian scent bottle is it.
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Isn't it? Do you know what it looked like? Perhaps it did look like a perfume bottle. It would make sense to have your bottle of deadly nerve agent disguised as something innocent. That would explain why the lady died, she may have tried it on or at least sprayed it into the air to test.
 
I like that, Mythopoeika. (I smiled but I know it's no laughing matter really is it)
 
Min Bannister said:
Isn't it? Do you know what it looked like? Perhaps it did look like a perfume bottle. It would make sense to have your bottle of deadly nerve agent disguised as something innocent. That would explain why the lady died, she may have tried it on or at least sprayed it into the air to test.
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But why would an assassin, completely unsuspected by anyone, never going to be stopped by the police "Oi you what's that in your purse?" be carrying deadly nerve agent in a perfume bottle? It seems unnecessarily complicated. And also implies a female assassin (I mean how many men carry round squirty perfume bottles) if you want unattention-grabbing. If it reduces suspicion before the event (anyway, no police were stopping people looking for anything before the event) it doesn't reduce it afterwards ("Officer, I saw that woman spraying perfume on their door handle!!!" "RIght young lady let's have a look in your purse")

Actually if I was going to put something on the Skripal's door handle (and who knows if that's right anyway), I would make it something a bit gloopy that would stick and not just drip off onto the floor, or evaporate straight away. I wouldn't think something squirty would cut it. And you know how easily squirty sprays gum up. And then they dribble down the bottle. I wouldn't go for such a thing if I were an assassin, I'd be covered in the stuff in no time.

But you might be right, I'm starting to feel I could believe anything now.
 
Eponastill said:
But why would an assassin, completely unsuspected by anyone, never going to be stopped by the police "Oi you what's that in your purse?" be carrying deadly nerve agent in a perfume bottle? It seems unnecessarily complicated. And also implies a female assassin (I mean how many men carry round squirty perfume bottles) if you want unattention-grabbing. If it reduces suspicion before the event (anyway, no police were stopping people looking for anything before the event) it doesn't reduce it afterwards ("Officer, I saw that woman spraying perfume on their door handle!!!" "RIght young lady let's have a look in your purse")
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i am not sure but to my mind, if I was a Russian assassin I would feel more confident in transporting my nerve agent from Russia through airports, customs etc if it looked like a bottle of Chanel No. 5 than a nebulous unmarked "something". Female or male (it's a present for my wife/sister).

And as a random passer by, I might be more likely to pick up a bottle of perfume than just some unmarked bottle of liquid. I don't think I would but maybe someone else would.

i don't know. I am just speculating but if that were the scenario, it wouldn't seem that far fetched to me.

The only other possibility I can think of is that the "bottle" was a phial of the type a heroin addict might get their heroin on prescription in. They might have wanted to take that home and open it.
 
Min Bannister said:
i am not sure but to my mind, if I was a Russian assassin I would feel more confident in transporting my nerve agent from Russia through airports, customs etc if it looked like a bottle of Chanel No. 5 than a nebulous unmarked "something". Female or male (it's a present for my wife/sister).

And as a random passer by, I might be more likely to pick up a bottle of perfume than just some unmarked bottle of liquid. I don't think I would but maybe someone else would.

i don't know. I am just speculating but if that were the scenario, it wouldn't seem that far fetched to me.

The only other possibility I can think of is that the "bottle" was a phial of the type a heroin addict might get their heroin on prescription in. They might have wanted to take that home and open it.
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I'm guessing also that it was inside a special case that marked it out as 'unusual'.
 
There is a perfume called From Russia With Love.
 
:eek: at the posts above!

Min Bannister said:
i am not sure but to my mind, if I was a Russian assassin I would feel more confident in transporting my nerve agent from Russia through airports, customs etc if it looked like a bottle of Chanel No. 5 than a nebulous unmarked "something". Female or male (it's a present for my wife/sister).

And as a random passer by, I might be more likely to pick up a bottle of perfume than just some unmarked bottle of liquid. I don't think I would but maybe someone else would.
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Looks like my instinct was correct although the police are not confirming it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44839805

The nerve agent that poisoned two people in Amesbury was contained in a perfume bottle, the brother of one of the victims has said.

Matthew Rowley said his brother Charlie, who is seriously ill in hospital, told him he had picked up the perfume bottle.

The Metropolitan Police, which is leading the investigation, refused to confirm the claim.

Previously the force has said only that it was found in a "small bottle".
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I have taken strange science-related bottles and tablets and white powders through airports and I have never once been stopped and questioned about what's in the luggage, so it's not a problem to have a little bottle of something hidden in your luggage. If you're dealing with something where a single accidental drop can kill, I wouldn't want to risk it in a perfume bottle, I'd want something with a really decent seal. One of those bottles with a resealing rubber lid that you can extract stuff from with a syringe and then it closes again. The newspapers report that the police report that Charlie has said he found a perfume bottle, we therefore believe it (or, with tin hat on, it's at least as true as anything else we've been told).

But whether I'd use a perfume bottle or not, another thing that makes no proper sense is why the assassin wouldn't hotfoot it out of Salisbury after contaminating the Skripal's house, but go to the park, which is really not in a sensible direction at all, and drop the bottle there instead of nearer the Skripals' house, or indeed in one of no doubt many bins in the park? There's a map here to see the relative position of the sites:
http://www.theblogmire.com/debunking-the-first-piece-of-nonsense-in-skripal-2-0/

perhaps the assassin thought they'd get in a bit of tourism while they were there, perhaps they were on foot on their way to the cathedral or the museum. Before their train came in. who knows. truth is stranger than fiction.
 
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Roland Deschain said:
It could also explain why Ms Sturgess has been the only fatality so far, she may have applied it to herself to see what it smelt like.
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That's a Hitchcockian motif right there.

A variety of bottles on a dressing table. The viewer knows which is a deadly nerve agent as she lifts lids and sniffs from them at random before finally settling on an unfamiliar label...

*Shudder*
 
Eponastill said:
I have taken strange science-related bottles and tablets and white powders through airports and I have never once been stopped and questioned about what's in the luggage, so it's not a problem to have a little bottle of something hidden in your luggage. If you're dealing with something where a single accidental drop can kill, I wouldn't want to risk it in a perfume bottle, I'd want something with a really decent seal. One of those bottles with a resealing rubber lid that you can extract stuff from with a syringe and then it closes again. The newspapers report that the police report that Charlie has said he found a perfume bottle, we therefore believe it (or, with tin hat on, it's at least as true as anything else we've been told).
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It could have been an atomiser rather than a bottle with a stopper, that would be safer I would have thought. As for the airport, that may be true but you weren't ( I assume! ;)) actually carrying a deadly chemical with the intention of killing someone. I still think that if I was, I'd want some sort of disguise. It would also make it much harder to find the discarded vessel afterwards, as indeed it was.

But whether I'd use a perfume bottle or not, another thing that makes no proper sense is why the assassin wouldn't hotfoot it out of Salisbury after contaminating the Skripal's house, but go to the park, which is really not in a sensible direction at all, and drop the bottle there instead of nearer the Skripals' house, or indeed in one of no doubt many bins in the park? There's a map here to see the relative position of the sites:
http://www.theblogmire.com/debunking-the-first-piece-of-nonsense-in-skripal-2-0/

perhaps the assassin thought they'd get in a bit of tourism while they were there, perhaps they were on foot on their way to the cathedral or the museum. Before their train came in. who knows. truth is stranger than fiction.
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I don't know about the park specifically but in the link you posted, the writer can't understand why they wouldn't make for a train station or drive to an airport. I think I know why. Train and petrol stations are absolutely bristling with CCTV cameras. An airport would be the worst possible place to go as it would instantly put you ( or at least your fake name) on a suspect list as it would be possible to sift through everyone who flew out of the UK within a suitable number of hours of the attack. Difficult but possible. Especially if they could match you with CCTV from Salisbury. Far better to hide in plain sight, especially since you know it will be a while before anyone figures out exactly what happened.
 
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