Novichok In Salisbury: Secret Agents & Nerve Agents In Britain

[blessmycottonsocks]

Some forumists over at The Guardian (yes I know) are claiming that the Novichok nerve agent used in Salisbury was a "false flag" operation to discredit Putin and detract from the UK government's economic and other Brexit-related problems.

I'm sure we're a more sensible and level-headed bunch over here at Fortean Towers and wouldn't believe such conspiratorial nonsense .....

 

[Tanglebones]

I'm sure we're a more sensible and level-headed bunch over here at Fortean Towers and wouldn't believe such conspiratorial nonsense .....

I just don't believe anything anymore. It's just easier that way.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

I just don't believe anything anymore. It's just easier that way.

I'm afraid I don't believe you.

 

[Ringo]

What if their false flag stance is just a false flag? They may be government agents falsly flagging a real event as a false flag? Or maybe my post is a false flag? Or maybe your post is a false flag? Maybe there is no article.

It seems anything that happens now is marked as a false flag. The world was a better place when we couldn't communicate with each other so rapidly and easily.

 

[Ermintruder]

I just don't believe anything anymore. It's just easier that way.

Bravo. Welcome to the bright side of the street. All of this is utter nonsense.

Novichok. This is just sheer street-theatre. Distraction for the masses.

I'm afraid I don't believe you.

Correct. Five points for Gryffindor.

(Doubt as a response to the veracity of any given situation does not equate with understanding. Either overall, or specific to the depicted scenario. Whilst neither understanding nor motive are yet evident, that does not validate the opera).

Especially when there are so many obvious flaws in the presented tableau.

 

[ramonmercado]

Some forumists over at The Guardian (yes I know) are claiming that the Novichok nerve agent used in Salisbury was a "false flag" operation to discredit Putin and detract from the UK government's economic and other Brexit-related problems.

I'm sure we're a more sensible and level-headed bunch over here at Fortean Towers and wouldn't believe such conspiratorial nonsense .....

It sounds reasonable to me.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

Another Russian dissident, thought be Nicolai Glushkov, found dead in South London tonight.
Forensic and anti-terrorist teams are investigating.

Such a shame that the Russian leadership could not continue in the Gorbachev manner with his enlightened peristroika.

These are "interesting times" we could have done without living through.

Good to see US and French solidarity with us though.

 

[GNC]

Bravo. Welcome to the bright side of the street. All of this is utter nonsense.

Novichok. This is just sheer street-theatre. Distraction for the masses.

Correct. Five points for Gryffindor.

(Doubt as a response to the veracity of any given situation does not equate with understanding. Either overall, or specific to the depicted scenario. Whilst neither understanding nor motive are yet evident, that does not validate the opera).

Especially when there are so many obvious flaws in the presented tableau.

Just because we don't have all the facts doesn't mean real people aren't injured or dead. This ultra-scepticism gets pretty tasteless when, for instance, the theorists are telling the bereaved they're not "grieving properly" or are actors.

 

[Ascalon]

[QUOTE="blessmycottonsocks, post: 1742906, member: 48959

I'm sure we're a more sensible and level-headed bunch over here at Fortean Towers and wouldn't believe such conspiratorial nonsense .....

I just don't believe anything anymore. It's just easier that way.[/QUOTE]

Hypernormalisation?

I think I'm going to get a run of t-shirts that say:

I've been hypernormalised!

 

[Tanglebones]

Good to see US and French solidarity with us though.

Tillerson was sacked by Trump within days of expressing his support for May and, according to the Guardian, the French are asking for proof that the Russians are to blame.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

Just listening to the live coverage from New York and the support for us from the USA and France was absolutely superb.
Putin's regime is looking increasingly isolated.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

Just listening to the live coverage from New York and the support for us from the USA and France was absolutely superb.
Putin's regime is looking increasingly isolated.

And The Netherlands!

The Russian guy's bluster about the UK attacking Yugoslavia and his utterly bizarre references to Sherlock Holmes beggared belief.

 

[Victory]

Three ideas on what happened?

1.) Putin has ordered these assassinations/assassination attempts as revenge against the victims and a deterrent to others considering working against the Russian state.

2.) Rogue elements of the Russian security services have done the above, especially as revenge for any betrayed colleagues.

3.) These victims had branched out into business and were targeted by business rivals from organised crime who have ties to rogue elements within Russian state security services.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

Three ideas on what happened?

1.) Putin has ordered these assassinations/assassination attempts as revenge against the victims and a deterrent to others considering working against the Russian state.

2.) Rogue elements of the Russian security services have done the above, especially as revenge for any betrayed colleagues.

3.) These victims had branched out into business and were targeted by business rivals from organised crime who have ties to rogue elements within Russian state security services.

That's a fair analysis, but I would add a 4th possibility; that Russian agents - not necessarily rogue elements, have a significant degree of autonomy in their actions abroad. They may have deemed Putin's vow that defectors will "choke" and "kick the bucket" as tacit approval for them to kill these people and acted accordingly, in the belief that this would please Putin.

 

[McAvennie]

4.) This has been done by forces unknown to frame Russia, anger them and then claim we cannot possibly go through with Brexit while we are in such a vulnerable position and under threat from such a major power.

Some questions:
- What is the significance of Salisbury’s proximity to Porton Down - the UK chemical weapons factory where nerve agents have been manufactured in the past?
- Why have there been no updates on the two victims? All we have heard is that they fell into comas and that’s that. There were much more details in the Litvinenko case.
- Where is the useful CCTV? Cities are covered top to bottom with cameras yet all we have seen have been him buying sausages in a corner shop CCTV clip, walking past a shop window from its CCTV and a car driving down a street.

I’m not saying I buy into this theory, just that to me the knee jerk “it was Russia, let’s go straight to poking the bear before we have any firm evidence” seems very fishy to me.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

4.) This has been done by forces unknown to frame Russia, anger them and then claim we cannot possibly go through with Brexit while we are in such a vulnerable position and under threat from such a major power.

Some questions:
- What is the significance of Salisbury’s proximity to Porton Down - the UK chemical weapons factory where nerve agents have been manufactured in the past?
- Why have there been no updates on the two victims? All we have heard is that they fell into comas and that’s that. There were much more details in the Litvinenko case.
- Where is the useful CCTV? Cities are covered top to bottom with cameras yet all we have seen have been him buying sausages in a corner shop CCTV clip, walking past a shop window from its CCTV and a car driving down a street.

I’m not saying I buy into this theory, just that to me the knee jerk “it was Russia, let’s go straight to poking the bear before we have any firm evidence” seems very fishy to me.

Having devoted considerable resources into developing this specific neurotoxin, it doesn't seem very likely that Russia would knowingly share it with any other state.

As for the Skripals living in Salisbury, which Google Maps estimates as a 22 minute drive to the Porton Down research station, I see nothing suspicious in that. Litvenenko, Markov and the recently deceased Glushkov lived in London.

 

[Krepostnoi]

That's a fair analysis, but I would add a 4th possibility; that Russian agents - not necessarily rogue elements, have a significant degree of autonomy in their actions abroad. They may have deemed Putin's vow that defectors will "choke" and "kick the bucket" as tacit approval for them to kill these people and acted accordingly, in the belief that this would please Putin.

Yes. Putin is canny enough not to leave any smoking guns. Meanwhile, would-be courtiers dream up schemes that they think will endear them to him, and boost them up the power/influence/wealth ladder. Such as ridding him of troublesome priests, and the like. Using hard/impossible-to-obtain substances such as polonium and novichok sends a clear signal not only to existing and potential turncoats, but also to the patriotic audience at home that Putin is defending the national interest. Don't forget that there is a presidential election on Sunday. An elaborate attempted murder along these lines is well-understood by the domestic audience, whether they support Putin or not.

In this context, I think there is little doubt that the operation was carried out by Russian operatives. The only question for me, really, is the extent to which Putin knew about it in advance. Even if he did not, though, he has deliberately fostered an atmosphere in which these things take place, and must bear a large amount of the responsibility for them. (See also e.g. the downing of flight MH-17) As I remarked in the US conspiracy thread, this is an evil regime, willing to inflict agonising deaths on individuals, or at best to tolerate same, in order to make political points.

 

[McAvennie]

Having devoted considerable resources into developing this specific neurotoxin, it doesn't seem very likely that Russia would knowingly share it with any other state.

As for the Skripals living in Salisbury, which Google Maps estimates as a 22 minute drive to the Porton Down research station, I see nothing suspicious in that. Litvenenko, Markov and the recently deceased Glushkov lived in London.

Novichok was developed in the 70s and 80s from the combination of benign chemicals. Pretty sure in the 30 years that have elapsed the know-how has spread with or without Russia's willingness to share it.

It's not them living there that is suspicious, it is the fact that they were living in a community that presumably has a far higher percentage of people with knowledge of the manufacture of chemical weaponry/access to the components.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

Novichok was developed in the 70s and 80s from the combination of benign chemicals. Pretty sure in the 30 years that have elapsed the know-how has spread with or without Russia's willingness to share it.

It's not them living there that is suspicious, it is the fact that they were living in a community that presumably has a far higher percentage of people with knowledge of the manufacture of chemical weaponry/access to the components.

The UK authorities are now investigating 15 other cases of Russians having died under suspicious circumstances, whilst living in the UK. Mostly living around London, with one garden currently being dug up somewhere down in Devon.

The fact that, out of all of those cases, only one Russian in exile chose to settle in a location within a short-ish drive to Porton Down, hardly seems significant.

 

[Quake42]

Not a fan of the “Russians are coming!” hysteria used to explain everything from Brexit, to Trump, to cold weather but... in this case it walks, looks and quacks like a Muscovite duck. I agree there is a valid question as to whether the operation was centrally directed or an enterprising agent looking to curry favour, but that’s the extent of the doubt.

Bottom line is that Russia or its agents launched a chemical attack on British soil and that is clearly intolerable.

 

[kamalktk]

The UK authorities are now investigating 15 other cases of Russians having died under suspicious circumstances, whilst living in the UK. Mostly living around London, with one garden currently being dug up somewhere down in Devon.

The fact that, out of all of those cases, only one Russian in exile chose to settle in a location within a short-ish drive to Porton Down, hardly seems significant.

I do believe Russian state tv said recently that if you're a Russian exile maybe you shouldn' be living in London. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...te-tv-warns-traitors-not-to-settle-in-england

 

[Mythopoeika]

Really, there was nothing to stop the Russian agents from using conventional techniques to do the hit.
Using first Polonium and then a nerve agent is a power play - it's deliberately provocative.
If Russia did it, that is.
Also, Putin's reaction to a reporter's direct question should tell us all we need to know about the man.

 

[Tanglebones]

Bottom line is that Russia or its agents launched a chemical attack on British soil and that is clearly intolerable.

You might well be correct, but there is still no evidence that would stand up in a court of law.
Apparently this stuff was first tested in one of the 'stans, ( I forget which one...Uzbekistan I think). Surely it's a possibility that a sample went missing? The break up of the USSR was quite a messy affair after all.

I just think that the government should get its facts into line based on evidence before it starts throwing accusations around.

 

[ramonmercado]

Interesting...

I have now received confirmation from a well placed FCO source that Porton Down scientists are not able to identify the nerve gas as being of Russian manufacture, and have been resentful of the pressure being placed on them to do so.

Porton Down would only sign up to the formulation “of a type developed by Russia” after a rather difficult meeting where this was agreed as a compromise formulation. The Russians were allegedly researching, in the “Novichok” programme a generation of nerve agents which could be produced from commercially available precursors such as insecticides and fertilisers. This substance is a “novichok” in that sense. It is of that type. Just as I am typing on a laptop of a type developed by the United States, though this one was made in China.

To anybody with a Whitehall background this has been obvious for several days. The government has never said the nerve agent was made in Russia, or that it can only be made in Russia. The exact formulation “of a type developed by Russia” was used by Theresa May in parliament, used by the UK at the UN Security Council, used by Boris Johnson on the BBC yesterday and, most tellingly of all, “of a type developed by Russia” is the precise phrase used in the joint communique issued by the UK, USA, France and Germany yesterday: ...

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/of-a-type-developed-by-liars/

 

[Quake42]

Craig Murray is a batshit crazy conspiracy theorist who has of late taken to repeating anti Semitic tropes. I’d treat him very cautiously as a source.

 

[ramonmercado]

Craig Murray is a batshit crazy conspiracy theorist who has of late taken to repeating anti Semitic tropes. I’d treat him very cautiously as a source.

He has also uncovered some nasty dealings by the UK. There has been a relentless campaign by official sources to discredit him ever since he resigned as an Ambassador over the UK ignoring and indeed facilitating repression in the Stans.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

He has also uncovered some nasty dealings by the UK. There has been a relentless campaign by official sources to discredit him ever since he resigned as an Ambassador over the UK ignoring and indeed facilitating repression in the Stans.

Having been sacked for gross misconduct, he clearly has an axe to grind, so Quake42 is quite in order to question Murray's conspiracy stories.

 

[ramonmercado]

Having been sacked for gross misconduct, he clearly has an axe to grind, so Quake42 is quite in order to question Murray's conspiracy stories. Furthermore his irrational and constant attacks on Israel - even suggesting culpability in the Salisbury attack, hint at an underlying prejudice against the Jewish people and their homeland.

He was cleared of all charges of misconduct apart from speaking out about the UK being complicit in Human Rights violations. When the FCO removed him from office they gave him a severance package.

 

[uair01]

On my Facebook I got a great essay by performance artist Phil Smith (Crab Man):

some thoughts on events in Salisbury: this year, teaching a short module on site-specific performance, I introduced to the students the idea of a-symmetricality (I will post the text of my short introduction below).

I was trying to give to the students the idea that in making performance interventions in public spaces that it is possible to recruit the everyday actions, residents and possibilities of any space to their performance.

How one kind of performance can bring the space to a halt and neutralise its life, or be so 'theatrical' as to sit inside its own box and thus be set apart from the space, but how another kind of small and subtle action can command resources and direct players so much greater than its initial input.

That is the nature of the (almost certainly FSB/Russian) dramaturgy at Salisbury. The use of traceable nerve agent, ostensibly to do harm to one agent or former agent was always intended to spill far beyond that, given how easily it can spread, even if only very weak traces. The power and planned outcome of the intervention is thus, mostly (and intended this way), in the response of others. The sight of hundreds of uniformed military, some in balaclavas moving into the centre of a small cathedral city, of weapons experts in hazard suits (in scenes like a 1950s Quatermass dystopian sci fi movie) are all consistent with the intended asymmetricality of the initial intervention. The response to this very localised attack models the authoritarian dreams of its planners, and the implied 'infection' of an ever widening terrain (with ambulances and items from villages far away being wrapped up and taken away for 'decontamination', days after the attack locals being told to wash their clothes and possessions), creating a landscape of fear and anxiety in what have been, for many, terrains of relative comfort and complacency.

When one's clothes, phone, handbag or walking stick become a weapon of the FSB, as the UK authorities now imply, an atmosphere of negative paranoia is enhanced, and from which fear-based responses may come.

So, yes, a criminal action took place, probably by a state, but the unfolding responses are the greater part of the intention of the attack (indeed they are still part of the attack, which is ongoing) and the British state is playing its part now in a dramaturgy which serves its own authoritarian interests and those of others. As this 'drama' unfolds we need to understand it as being just as much about an authoritarian performance which at times transcends states as a poisonous chemistry.

 

[Mythopoeika]

Re the recent announcements by Mrs May and Boris Johnson that they are accusing Russia of the crime, I do think it is odd that they've blurted this out to the world. The usual style of British governments has been to conduct a detailed consultation before they start making accusations.
I don't like Corbyn's style and I mistrust his motivation, but maybe he has a point.

What we've seen worldwide is a sudden drop in standards of diplomacy. Maybe there's been a drop in IQs of the political classes as well?