Novichok In Salisbury: Secret Agents & Nerve Agents In Britain

[blessmycottonsocks]

Well, its turncoat spies, anyway. If it was murdering random members of the population like a certain religion then I could see why we'd be upset. If there is all this convincing evidence, why not at least attempt to tell us about it? Even the liar-in-chief had a dossier.

To be honest, it all seems a bit clumsy for the Russians. And I find the response, even if the allegations are true, highly hypocritical.

Well I suppose a Cold War is preferable to both sides than a hot war.

 

[GNC]

Well, its turncoat spies, anyway. If it was murdering random members of the population like a certain religion then I could see why we'd be upset. If there is all this convincing evidence, why not at least attempt to tell us about it? Even the liar-in-chief had a dossier.

To be honest, it all seems a bit clumsy for the Russians. And I find the response, even if the allegations are true, highly hypocritical.

Does a bully think to themselves, ooh, I'm being a bit obvious here with this scheming, better not intimidate with death threats to get my way TOO much?

 

[Cochise]

I reacted in the same way as many of you have to this over the second Iraq war. I'm embarrassed now to remember that I even argued with my wife in favour of bombing Iraq. Fool me once, your fault. Fool me twice, my fault.

Where is the proof? Thinking 'It's obvious he dunnit' is Sun level journalism, not proof.

 

[hunck]

I reacted in the same way as many of you have to this over the second Iraq war. I'm embarrassed now to remember that I even argued with my wife in favour of bombing Iraq. Fool me once, your fault. Fool me twice, my fault.

Where is the proof? Thinking 'It's obvious he dunnit' is Sun level journalism, not proof.

What would constitute proof for you? An official statement from Porton Down of their analysis? Short of an admission by the perpetrators I don't think there's going to be anything which can't be scoffed at..

 

[Cochise]

What would constitute proof for you? An official statement from Porton Down of their analysis? Short of an admission by the perpetrators I don't think there's going to be anything which can't be scoffed at..

How it was administered? By whom?

Just because something was made in Russia does not mean the Russian state used it. There is a level of anarchy in Russia, especially outside the big cities, that it's difficult for the West to grasp. Thank God no-one's managed to make off with any nukes yet, but it could happen.

The overlap between the current government, operatives of the Communist regime who still to some extent wield power, the gangs that grew up particularly in the Glasnost period, and outside criminal organisation that rushed into the vacuum before Putin came to power make working out what goes on there extremely difficult.

If what we achieve by our hysteria is weakening the Putin regime, expect the sort of things that have happened in Libya but on a vastly bigger scale and in a country with serious weaponry,

I can't adequately express my despair at the weak governments in Western Europe who instead of dealing with their own problems divert attention by meddling in regions they patently do not understand, and apparently without any though as to the possible consequences.

Get the proof, then go to the United Nations.

 

[EnolaGaia]

There are some pesky factoids that need to be borne in mind here ...

First ... 'Novichok' does not denote a single specific nerve agent. It's the label for a range or set of such agents. I have yet to see any identification of the agent used in the ex-spy attack that clearly matches it to a known specimen of its class, much less a specimen uniquely attributable to Soviet / Russian parties.

Second ... Some, if not all, Russian production of 'Novichok' agents was performed in outlying areas that have been independent nations for about a quarter century now. My point is that materials, expertise, etc., relevant to 'Novichok' production - not to mention samples of the agent itself - haven't been under uniquely Russian control for some time.

Third ... There's at least one documented case of a non-Russian party synthesizing 'Novichok' agent(s). This was done in Iran a few years ago for the sake of testing the compounds and reporting the first descriptions of the agents' chemical makeup and characteristics for inclusion in international chemical weapons databases. This research was reported in 2016:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/rcm.7757

http://www.spectroscopynow.com/deta...ussian-chemical-warfare-agents.html?tzcheck=1

The ex-spy attack certainly seems to reflect past Soviet / Russian shenanigans. However, the simplistic attribution of this attack to 'Novichok' doesn't necessarily point directly to Russia and / or the current Russian regime.

 

[XBergMann]

I can (just) remember the first "Cold War".
Didn't expect to live through another!
Putin's Russia seems every bit as extreme as the Soviet Union.

Except its economy is the size of Spain's - which isn't very big in the general scheme of things or to put it another way with 10 time zones, a massive landmass, huge natural resources and 140mn people the whole Russian economy is smaller than that of New York city.

Poor Russia desperate to sit at the big boys table but they don't qualify hence the tantrums and attacks on neighbours

 

[hunck]

How it was administered? By whom?

Just because something was made in Russia does not mean the Russian state used it. There is a level of anarchy in Russia, especially outside the big cities, that it's difficult for the West to grasp. Thank God no-one's managed to make off with any nukes yet, but it could happen.

The overlap between the current government, operatives of the Communist regime who still to some extent wield power, the gangs that grew up particularly in the Glasnost period, and outside criminal organisation that rushed into the vacuum before Putin came to power make working out what goes on there extremely difficult.

If what we achieve by our hysteria is weakening the Putin regime, expect the sort of things that have happened in Libya but on a vastly bigger scale and in a country with serious weaponry,

I can't adequately express my despair at the weak governments in Western Europe who instead of dealing with their own problems divert attention by meddling in regions they patently do not understand, and apparently without any though as to the possible consequences.

Get the proof, then go to the United Nations.

I have read that it may have been administered in their car but have no idea whether this is true. You'd think if they found traces in the car they'd say so. It's clearly somewhere they both were. As for the who, no doubt they're scouring cctv & potential suspects & flights/travel into & out of UK, but if it was the car, it could've been done somewhere where there was no cctv. Finding the who may not be that easy.

In the Litvinenko case [if you accept the official story, inquest result etc, that is] they found traces of Polonium all over London & on the aircraft going back to Russia & could pin it on the individuals responsible - one of whom is now an MP I believe. It took about 10 years for it to come out though.

 

[Cochise]

I'm sure they are doing all that, but why rush into action before you have the data?

Coincidentally, this is in the paper today -

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/9...ly-inquest-Miles-Goslet-An-Inconvenient-Death

Perhaps our government just kills its perceived enemies more efficiently.

 

[GNC]

I appreciate your faith in beneficial human nature, but the current Russian regime has been orchestrated by Alexandr Dugin for some years now, and spreading chaos as politics is his whole shtick. Confuse and conquer, and this is a lot of confusion.

Also worth mentioning that two of Skirpal's sons have died recently in mysterious circumstances. Someone really doesn't like that family, and the West has nothing to benefit from the terror engendered by their deaths.

 

[Cochise]

I appreciate your faith in beneficial human nature, but the current Russian regime has been orchestrated by Alexandr Dugin for some years now, and spreading chaos as politics is his whole shtick. Confuse and conquer, and this is a lot of confusion.

Also worth mentioning that two of Skirpal's sons have died recently in mysterious circumstances. Someone really doesn't like that family, and the West has nothing to benefit from the terror engendered by their deaths.

I have no faith in human nature at all, unfortunately. Nor do I think our government poisoned these people. But I do think they have rushed to judgement as they were desperately in need of a diversion.

There has been an orchestrated 'blame Russia' thing going on for some time now, from people on the left who resent that it is no longer Communist, and people on the Right who think it still is. After all, most people are terribly ill-informed about the country, and a fair few seem to overlook the cold war ended a long time ago. I find particularly hilarious the media wetting their pants over Russian ships in the Channel - look at a damn map, how else do they get ships from one side of Russia to the other? They've been doing it (the media) at least since 1905.

It's hardly a terror attack either, if the Russians did indeed carry it out - it's revenge. Which is equally unpleasant but a different animal. But the fact that there seems a determination to eliminate the entire family suggests to me they fell foul not only of Putin but of one of the gangs that operate more-or-less openly over there.

 

[Analis]

Obviously?

Not at all.

You should take into account the whole phrasing : Moon of Alabama wrote thatTheresa May's[…] claim that only Russia could be responsible for the Skripal incident is obviously bollocks. And this is true, as a number of comments have shown that Russia was not the only entity that could have access to Novichok. We know that the US or the British had access to former Soviet laboratories in some countries formerly part of the Soviet union, and that they have the means and the knowledge required to synthetize the substance. Which does not mean that Russians are not the culprit, but definitely that they are not the only possible culprit.

Putin is a man prepared to project patriotic power by means of violence.
Long track record of it....Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine, Syria and the Litvinenko poisoning to name a few examples.

In all those cases, they had a legitimate interest to act. Chechnya, it was to protect territorial integrity (your definition of a « projection of patriotic power by means of violence » would apply there as well to Lincoln); Georgia, it was more disputable, but it was a response to an attack on the Russian equivalent of Blue Helmts, put in place years before by an agreement by members of the CIS ; Ukraine was a response to a coup supported by a foreign power ; Syria was as an answer to a call from a government facing a many years old agression.
In the case of the Skripal poisoning, I fail to se where the 'patriotic' interest would lie. In increasing tension with Britain, isolating Russia and exposing it to more sanctions for such a trivial motive ? In endangering the next World Cup held in Russia ? None of this makes sense.
On the other hand, Britain has a recent history of forging accusations of chemical attacks and of massacres of civilians, including of blaming Russians for them.

Where and when did Israel attack Russia/Russians as you claim?

Do you mean Russian pilots of Syrian air force planes in the 1973 war?

They were in all likeliness involved in some attacks on Russians in Syria. Not acting alone, but alongside the USA and Britain, but their influence seems to be there.
https://thesaker.is/escalation-in-syria-how-far-can-the-russians-be-pushed/

 

[hunck]

Some good news:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...nger-in-critical-condition-says-salisbury-nhs
Yulia Skripal no longer in critical condition, says Salisbury NHS

Daughter of Sergei Skripal is improving rapidly, says hospital trust, while former spy remains critical

 

[Tanglebones]

Some good news:
Yulia Skripal no longer in critical condition, says Salisbury NHS

Daughter of Sergei Skripal is improving rapidly, says hospital trust, while former spy remains critical

That's good to hear.

 

[Tanglebones]

What would constitute proof for you? .

The burden of proof is on the prosecution.

I read earlier today that the two victims are unlikely to recover...apparently there is now a chance that they might be okay. Good.

We are being taken for fucking idiots here and I'm tired of it.

 

[Vardoger]

You most certainly have.
The land was Israel (and at one point Judea) for 1300 years until the Romans invaded 69 C.E, then set about de Judaizing the land by launching a military action which killed over 1 million Jews.
The Romans then renamed the land "Palestina" atfter invaders from Crete who had previously lived in the Gaza area but had died out.
The word Falash which is the root of Palestinian means "Invader".

Fast forward to the late 19th century when Jews return to the land in numbers, and they start to build a viable economy.
During the first 40 years of the 20th century under the Ottomans, then the British, in pour people from the Balkans, Egypt and what is now Jordan, attracted to the growing Jewish economy.
They add to a handful of Arabs who have been in the land since the 7th century, and the concept of "Palestinians" is invented by Muslim countries hostile to the resurrected Jewish nation state.

700,000 - 800,000 Palestinian refugees right after the establisment of Israel are not a handful of people.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

700,000 - 800,000 Palestinians refugees right after the establisment of Israel are not a handful of people.

Nor were the approximately 900,000 Jews forced to flee their homes as a result of the Arab war against the fledgling state of Israel:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries

Hence, the so-called "right of return" used by Arafat to scupper any peace deal, was complete bullshit.
The number of refugees on either side was not dissimilar and it was obvious that the Jewish people forced to flee for their lives would never have any right of return and had nowhere else to go but Israel.

 

[Vardoger]

Nor were the approximately 900,000 Jews forced to flee their homes as a result of the Arab war against the fledgling state of Israel:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries

Hence, the so-called "right of return" used by Arafat to scupper any peace deal, was complete bullshit.
The number of refugees on either side was not dissimilar and it was obvious that the Jewish people forced to flee for their lives would never have any right of return and had nowhere else to go but Israel.

Not defending that at all. Just pointing out an obvious wrong fact by Victory.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

Fair enough. It's just that many people seem to ignore the fact that more Jews were forced from their homes than Arabs as a result of the Arab-instigated war.

 

[Cochise]

To return to the Theresa May Phantom Spy Circus - I see the daughter, who was apparently going to have her life support turned off about 36 hours ago is now conscious and recovering well.

I bet they hope she doesn't remember anything.

The spooks probably were kept at bay by an honest medico - he'll likely be the next one found zipped up in a suitcase.

 

[hunck]

I don't think she was ever going to have life support switched off 36 hours ago. At least I've not read that anywhere.

'They' & 'spooks' being who - MI5 or similar? You've then got to convince several other countries to join in your story & get them to play along. Isn't that even more unlikely than Russians?

The latest announcement is that the front door is the new suspect as that's where they've found the most contamination so far. Exactly where on the door I don't know. Seems a bit unlikely - someone else could've become the victim.

No doubt more will drip out in the next few weeks. Whether you choose to believe it is another matter.

 

[ramonmercado]

Salisbury Plain major military chemical weapons exercise 6 days BEFORE the attack on the Skirpals! Didn't see this referred to in any press reports.

Toxic storm for Royal Marines in major chemical exercise
06/03/2018
Royal Marines donned gas masks for three weeks as they tested Britain’s ability to fight in the event of a chemical – or, worse, nuclear – attack.

Troops from 40 Commando, based at Norton Manor, near Taunton, joined the country’s leading experts in Chemical, Biological, Radiological and Nuclear warfare to make sure they could cope in a worst-case scenario.

The Corps trained extensively for the threat of chemical warfare in both Gulf wars – thankfully they were not used by Saddam Hussein’s forces against British troops in either conflict.

Fifteen years later, and the threat remains – though not in Iraq. But the conflict in Syria has shown that some nations not only possess weapons of mass destruction, but are prepared to use them....

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-a...-for-royal-marines-in-major-chemical-exercise

 

[hunck]

Heading even further into conspiracy territory - maybe GCHQ had picked up a chemical attack threat on the wires & this was a preparation in case. Maybe they know the source but can't divulge details for 'security reasons'.

 

[Cochise]

I very much like your avatar, being a Beefheart fan - favourite LP Clear Spot. I don't mean to imply I know what has happened here my whole point is we don't know. And the statements from government ask us to take everything on trust. Well, I don't have any trust left.

 

[hunck]

I understand where you're coming from with the distrust & agree we don't know & probably never will, the details. Or at least for the next 70 years or something. It'll be interesting what, if anything, Yulia can add to the story.

I'm with you, Clear Spot is the biz!

 

[Victory]

Analis


As for Putin, his tolerance of Assad's awful barrel bombing of civilians tells all that both are cruel leaders.
Are you on Putin's payroll?

Your arguments on Israel are contrary to fact, they are simply your bias.
You have no examples or data to back up your arguments.

You dismiss the 1300 year existence of Israel (and Judea) as irrelevant.
Of course you do.
Because if you fail to dismiss it then anything you argue on the region has no basis in any historical or moral compass.
Your claim that Judaism is less than 2500 years old is laughable, and that the Bible is fiction is absurd...the remains of the Temple in Jerusalem are there for all to see.

Jews must be sovereign over the land, for spiritual reasons that benefit all of humanity.
They are the oldest traceable original inhabitants of the land, and ever since being kicked out by the Romans have wanted to return, and now have returned, to their homes.

Your dismissal of the 1 million plus Jews killed by Roman occupation of Israel and Judea is a disgusting dismissal of attempted genocide.
It is not widely "established" that this genocide did not occur, except by bigots such as yourself.
I am someone who has stood on the very steps where my fellow religionists hid underneath, and were speared to death by Roman soldiers who broke the steps and then pushed through the spears.

Your claim that Arab economic immigration from the late 19th century onwards are Israeli propaganda is simply your anti-Semitic bias.
The sheer rapid change in Arab population over 40 years was not a result of natural growth.
The genetics prove immigration.
The surnames prove immigration - the most common Gazan surnames being Morsi and Mitzri, meaning "Egyptian"
The land ownership documents prove immigration - the West Bank was apportioned by Jordanian officials after 1948 to the new immigrants, because the Ottoman records could not prove ownership.
The movement of people is documented, and known by the Arabs themselves.
The so called Palestinians are not one ethnic people, but many.
and you claim that the Arabs move din peacefully and did not try to take over the land - those are insane claims.
The Jews in the land have been subject to violent Arab attack since the 19th century, long before the modern state of Israel was independent.
Have you not heard of the Hebron massacre of 1927?
Or the PLO terrorism from the late 60's onwards?
Or Hamas?
Or of the Infitifadas?
And they have clearly tried to take over the land, - by appealing to the UN to set up a new nation state called Palestine!
The PLO and Hamas charters both state they want all of the land from the Mediteranean Sea to the River Jordan.



Vardoger

You misinterpreted the intended meaning of my post.
My intent was to state that the amount of Arabs in the land since the 7th century was a handful [and I add that it remained so until the late 19th century], but yes, by the mid 20th century, their numbers had swelled through economic immigration.

Their leaders told them to leave so that "They could push the Jews into the sea" and then the Arabs could come back after a few days.

 

[ramonmercado]

Heading even further into conspiracy territory - maybe GCHQ had picked up a chemical attack threat on the wires & this was a preparation in case. Maybe they know the source but can't divulge details for 'security reasons'.

But aren't you surprised that journalists didn't even consider this as a possible source of the nerve agent? Should the media just accept government press releases or should they investigate stories?

 

[hunck]

But aren't you surprised that journalists didn't even consider this as a possible source of the nerve agent? Should the media just accept government press releases or should they investigate stories?

My reading of that report is that it was an exercise. The use of inverted commas when it talks about a decontaminating unit for 'polluted' people would seem to show it was a simulation, not that actual nerve agents were used. I'd be very surprised if they were.

 

[ramonmercado]

My reading of that report is that it was an exercise. The use of inverted commas when it talks about a decontaminating unit for 'polluted' people would seem to show it was a simulation, not that actual nerve agents were used. I'd be very surprised if they were.

So how do the marines ever get realistic training with such weapons? How do they know if their biohazard suits are functioning? They engage in live fire exercises to train for actual combat and deal with radioactive materials when engaging in nuclear incident simulations.

 

[ramonmercado]

The front door where days later a policeman with zero protection was allowed to stand with his back to the same door covered in the most potent and deadly nerve agent ever created. Does anyone think that questions should be asked about the line we're being sold?