• We have updated the guidelines regarding posting political content: please see the stickied thread on Website Issues.

Serial Killers

blessmycottonsocks said:
And there is something very wrong with the culture in the Health Service where the whistle-blowers who raised serious concerns about Letby were forced to apologise and threatened with sanctions. Just beggars belief.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...raising-alarm-over-lucy-letby-and-baby-deaths
Click to expand...
You'd think one of the seven paediatricians might have had a quiet pint with a CID officer of their acquaintance and happen to mention their concerns about a certain nurse.

Or even pop along to the police station after work, wearing their NHS tag, and ask to speak confidentially to a detective on a matter of grave concern.
Front desk staff would fall over themselves to arrange it.

Several people tried to report the serial murderer Harold Shipman, notably a taxi driver whose clients were dying in short order. They were brushed off because Shipman was a doctor, how dare they!
That deference would certainly work the other way. A hospital consultant would be listened to.

Any of the staff could've done that. They were too intimidated to try it.

On the other'and, @Swifty and I have both worked in healthcare and would have hotfooted it to the Nick if we'd come across similar. If I were fobbed off, I'd go to the Press.

The worst aspect here, after of course the attacks on the babies and their resulting injuries and deaths, is the cover-up.
A public enquiry must be forthcoming.

As I've previously mentioned, I was once working temporarily on a ward where a senior nurse was accused of killing elderly patients.

Wikipedia page on Barbara Salisbury

I was called as a witness but as the police had several stronger cases the death I had evidence about was not taken forward.
(My evidence was circumstantial but, I thought, pretty convincing. It was also in my best handwriting.)

In Salisbury's case, she'd more or less openly stated her intentions to kill off bedbocking patients. Letby was far more discreet although her demeanour was questionable.

I'm bringing this up because Salisbury's activities were the talk of the ward, to the extent that when I walked up to urgently-conferring colleagues they'd nudge each other and go quiet. I thought I'd done something wrong!

Ward staff rumbled Salisbury, and the same went for Letby. Shipman was widely suspected.
People know what's what. They should feel free to express their suspicions.
 
JamesWhitehead said:
A need to be in an ongoing soap-opera? I fear the babies were just props to her. The vampiric buzz was from the emotional wreckage.

Just my guess. :(
Click to expand...
You've just described the plot for the film Nurse Betty. The character's mentally unstable, obsessed with a fictional TV soap opera doctor so blags her way into working in a hospital .. (this trailer's misleading and make the film look like a rom com. It certainly isn't)

 
escargot said:
You'd think one of the seven paediatricians might have had a quiet pint with a CID officer of their acquaintance and happen to mention their concerns about a certain nurse.

Or even pop along to the police station after work, wearing their NHS tag, and ask to speak confidentially to a detective on a matter of grave concern.
Front desk staff would fall over themselves to arrange it.

Several people tried to report the serial murderer Harold Shipman, notably a taxi driver whose clients were dying in short order. They were brushed off because Shipman was a doctor, how dare they!
That deference would certainly work the other way. A hospital consultant would be listened to.

Any of the staff could've done that. They were too intimidated to try it.

On the other'and, @Swifty and I have both worked in healthcare and would have hotfooted it to the Nick if we'd come across similar. If I were fobbed off, I'd go to the Press.

The worst aspect here, after of course the attacks on the babies and their resulting injuries and deaths, is the cover-up.
A public enquiry must be forthcoming.

As I've previously mentioned, I was once working temporarily on a ward where a senior nurse was accused of killing elderly patients.

Wikipedia page on Barbara Salisbury

I was called as a witness but as the police had several stronger cases the death I had evidence about was not taken forward.
(My evidence was circumstantial but, I thought, pretty convincing. It was also in my best handwriting.)

In Salisbury's case, she'd more or less openly stated her intentions to kill off bedbocking patients. Letby was far more discreet although her demeanour was questionable.

I'm bringing this up because Salisbury's activities were the talk of the ward, to the extent that when I walked up to urgently-conferring colleagues they'd nudge each other and go quiet. I thought I'd done something wrong!

Ward staff rumbled Salisbury, and the same went for Letby. Shipman was widely suspected.
People know what's what. They should feel free to express their suspicions.
Click to expand...
Yes.
I sincerely hope that the NHS managers who tried to hush this all up and effectively let Letby carry on killing for another year or so, get very long custodial sentences (but I bet they won't).
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
Yes.
I sincerely hope that the NHS managers who tried to hush this all up and effectively let Letby carry on killing for another year or so, get very long custodial sentences (but I bet they won't).
Click to expand...
They'll walk.

There is to be an independent inquiry into the circumstances of the murders, which (unlike a full public enquiry) has no statutary powers.
It cannot for example compel witnesses to attend under threat of contempt of court.

Government website page on the subject -
Government orders independent inquiry following Lucy Letby verdict
 
escargot said:
They'll walk.

There is to be an independent inquiry into the circumstances of the murders, which (unlike a full public enquiry) has no statutary powers.
It cannot for example compel witnesses to attend under threat of contempt of court.

Government website page on the subject -
Government orders independent inquiry following Lucy Letby verdict
Click to expand...
This is, of course, outrageous. But there have been so many outrageous things since the 'Iraq WMD' scam that I don't believe there is anything us, the ordinary folk, can do about it.

And yes, I was too trusting and believed no government would lie about something so major - the wife, of course, saw right through it.

We now know they lie about just about everything and take responsibility for nothing.
 
Last edited:
escargot said:
Any of the staff could've done that. They were too intimidated to try it.
Click to expand...
The In-House GP had a situation whilst still in training where he was asked, as a mature individual, to report something by a concerned nursing sister. Guess who got a rollocking when lies were told by somebody else. NHS whistleblowers NEVER fare well, which is why so many keep stuhm.
 
bugmum said:
The In-House GP had a situation whilst still in training where he was asked, as a mature individual, to report something by a concerned nursing sister. Guess who got a rollocking when lies were told by somebody else. NHS whistleblowers NEVER fare well, which is why so many keep stuhm.
Click to expand...
Sorry to hear that.
The problems start from the top down, so until those people in charge change their thinking, it will always be like this. :(
 
With regards to the Letby case, what makes my blood run cold is how long it went on for. She was living her best fantasy life as reality, and getting an apology from the doctors, can you imagine what that did to her understanding of herself and what she was doing.

JamesWhitehead said:
The vampiric buzz
Click to expand...

Good description. And she gorged herself.
 
bugmum said:
The In-House GP had a situation whilst still in training where he was asked, as a mature individual, to report something by a concerned nursing sister. Guess who got a rollocking when lies were told by somebody else. NHS whistleblowers NEVER fare well, which is why so many keep stuhm.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately people who see things that aren't right often have to weigh the consequences of reporting vs how the reporting and fallout will affect their lives.

It is a very tough decision to be the one to say "hey, this isn't right". Not only are you identifying the perpetrator of the action, but also those who've allowed it to go on without saying anything.
 
What is the most disturbing to me about the Lucy Letby case is the failure to stop her.

Which is why the lack of a fully empowered enquiry is so wrong. I can't tell whether the woman herself is evil or simply deranged - her writings suggest to me the latter. No doubt she will never be let out again, so it hardly matters either way - what matters most is that she was allowed to carry on killing, and all the signs are that if the situation was to be repeated the management would allow it to happen all over again.
 
Any adult who believes another person is harming children has a duty to take action. I've done it myself and taken the consequences and I was right. I would do it again.
Other posters on here have too, and suffered for it, and their consciences are also clear.

In Letby's case, not only were fellow care and nursing staff too afraid to speak up, seven consultant paediatricians, top medical personnel, were too. Their consciences were overriden by deference to Management.

This is wrong. Murder and attempted murder are police matters. It's not up to the management or even the individual.
You give it to the police, let them sort it out. That's their job.

If the police had been involved early on, however discreetly, Letby would have caught wind of it and stopped.
Maybe she'd even have gone off sick with depression or walked out in protest. Even harmed herself. Who knows?
The babies would have been safe from then on though.

My local hospital has a small police base on the premises. Does wonders for the atmosphere in A&E on a Saturday night. :cool:
The police are always available there.

If Letby had worked at this hospital - which she could have done, as nurse training there is associated with the Countess of Chester - staff with suspicions about her might have popped over after work for a chat. They wouldn't be fobbed off.

I'm wondering now if Letby did any placements at my local hospital. People whose babies were born there will be thinking back, did they meet a charming young student nurse called Lucy?
Letby certainly worked in a Liverpool hospital and her time there is under scrutiny.
 
Cochise said:
What is the most disturbing to me about the Lucy Letby case is the failure to stop her.

Which is why the lack of a fully empowered enquiry is so wrong. I can't tell whether the woman herself is evil or simply deranged - her writings suggest to me the latter. No doubt she will never be let out again, so it hardly matters either way - what matters most is that she was allowed to carry on killing, and all the signs are that if the situation was to be repeated the management would allow it to happen all over again.
Click to expand...

The NHS managers who tried to hush it all up and persecuted the whistle-blowers are complicit in Letby's culpability.
 
I saw somewhere that since she was no longer working there, over 2500 babies have gone through that unit and there has only been one death. Not sure if that's true but if so, it gives some perspective as to how unusual that was, to have baby after baby dying. So, many people must have been suspicious. Apparently, the drs not only were forced to apologise to her, but she was offered a chance to be kicked upstairs and put on an MA programme...

The stills of her bedroom are fascinating. Very Dolores Umbridge - lots of cuddly toys, cutesy word signs like "Leave Sparkles Wherever You Go", glitter, fairy lights... almost serial killer set dressing - creepy as feck.

This YouTuber had some interesting insights into her demeanour in court, attending some days in the trial. (Also has other good content by the look of it).

 
Last edited:
escargot said:
You'd think one of the seven paediatricians might have had a quiet pint with a CID officer of their acquaintance and happen to mention their concerns about a certain nurse.

Or even pop along to the police station after work, wearing their NHS tag, and ask to speak confidentially to a detective on a matter of grave concern.
Click to expand...

Why should they have to? If you think your neighbour's house is on fire, you don't wait until the next time you happen to meet a fireman in your local pub in order to report it.

From the Groan article linked above:

"According to two consultant paediatricians, in July 2016 a hospital executive said contacting the police would damage the hospital’s reputation...after one senior doctor recommended bringing in criminal investigators."

"...the hospital’s chief executive, instructed senior doctors to write a letter of apology to Letby on 26 January 2017 for repeatedly raising concerns about her."

"Concerns were raised several more times by consultants as babies continued to die unexpectedly. Letby was finally removed from the unit in early July 2016..."

The problem is a top-heavy management culture more interested in preserving the status quo (and their pay packages) than in grasping nettles.

maximus otter
 
Last edited:
Dr Stephen Breary, one of the seven consultants who tried to raise the alarm, is interviewed in the BBC documentary on Letby.
He appears several times to explain the process of identifying Letby as the cause of the babies' collapses and deaths.

At the end of the programme Dr Breary weeps as he tries to assure parents that the hospital is now as safe as any other.

After the first three deaths, simple analysis of shift patterns proved Letby had been present each time. She should have been gone that minute. Babies would have been safe. Dr Breary and his colleagues knew that.
 
I've not followed this that closely but how was she giving insulin to baby or some of the babies that didn't need it? Don't nurses have to have approval from a doctor, check the drug out in some way and make it known for whom it's for?
 
maximus otter said:
Why should they have to? If you think your neighbour's house is on fire, you don't wait until the next time you happen to meet a fireman in your local pub in order to report it.

From the Groan article linked above:

"According to two consultant paediatricians, in July 2016 a hospital executive said contacting the police would damage the hospital’s reputation...after one senior doctor recommended bringing in criminal investigators."

"...the hospital’s chief executive, instructed senior doctors to write a letter of apology to Letby on 26 January 2017 for repeatedly raising concerns about her."

"Concerns were raised several more times by consultants as babies continued to die unexpectedly. Letby was finally removed from the unit in early July 2016..."

The problem is a top-heavy management culture more interested in preserving the status quo (and their pay packages) than in grasping nettles.

maximus otter
Click to expand...

That cEO should be sacked without notice for gross misconduct. Let him sue for unfair dismissal if he wants.
 
ramonmercado said:
That cEO should be sacked without notice for gross misconduct. Let him sue for unfair dismissal if he wants.
Click to expand...
Bet you they won't be. Which makes my point above. No accountability, no responsibility. Runs throughout the government (of whatever alleged alignments) and the various arms of the civil (ha) service and other monopolies and cartels.

We are fcuk'd

On another point, this has raised controversy over the death penalty again. No no no. First, it turns the state into killers like the killer, second there are too many cases where innocents have been hanged.
 
Cochise said:
…the death penalty again. No no no. First, it turns the state into killers like the killer, second there are too many cases where innocents have been hanged.
Click to expand...

OTOH, in the UK, about 1.5 people per year are killed by people who have completed “life” sentences.

Also, today we are far better at detecting crime and respecting civil rights.

maximus otter
 
maximus otter said:
OTOH, in the UK, about 1.5 people per year are killed by people who have completed “life” sentences.

Also, today we are far better at detecting crime and respecting civil rights.

maximus otter
Click to expand...
'Life' should mean life. As in, not let out until too old to do any further harm, not 15 years or so.

Not sure about the second point. Are we really?
 
I'd guess, but certainly not condone that the management used some sort of risk assessment of the concerns based on likelihood and severity. It would or should have changed with more deaths or concerns but probably went along the lines of well how likely is it that we have a serial killer working with children? Not very, and if we start accusing people we'll have poor publicity, staff relations, etc.

There should be a standard method of quickly investigating these concerns so that if they are unfounded no blame attaches to anyone but if there is a hint of a problem staff are removed from the job pending a more detailed inquiry.
 
escargot said:
Any adult who believes another person is harming children has a duty to take action. I've done it myself and taken the consequences and I was right. I would do it again.
Other posters on here have too, and suffered for it, and their consciences are also clear.

In Letby's case, not only were fellow care and nursing staff too afraid to speak up, seven consultant paediatricians, top medical personnel, were too. Their consciences were overriden by deference to Management.

This is wrong. Murder and attempted murder are police matters. It's not up to the management or even the individual.
You give it to the police, let them sort it out. That's their job.

If the police had been involved early on, however discreetly, Letby would have caught wind of it and stopped.
Maybe she'd even have gone off sick with depression or walked out in protest. Even harmed herself. Who knows?
The babies would have been safe from then on though.

My local hospital has a small police base on the premises. Does wonders for the atmosphere in A&E on a Saturday night. :cool:
The police are always available there.

If Letby had worked at this hospital - which she could have done, as nurse training there is associated with the Countess of Chester - staff with suspicions about her might have popped over after work for a chat. They wouldn't be fobbed off.

I'm wondering now if Letby did any placements at my local hospital. People whose babies were born there will be thinking back, did they meet a charming young student nurse called Lucy?
Letby certainly worked in a Liverpool hospital and her time there is under scrutiny.
Click to expand...
I agree in principle, but in practice, it is not always so simple. What starts as an uncomfortable feeling becomes a niggling doubt, becomes a suspicion, becomes a rumour, becomes a standing joke. There is seldom a moment when you catch someone absolutely red handed. The problem becomes a familiar background suspicion and the familiar is all too easily disregarded.

Reporting something with potentially career changing consequences for the reporter and reported requires something near to certainty and clear evidence.

Everyone knows something, but no one knows everything. Groupthink comes into play. Also, when something is everyone's responsibility, it is no one's particular responsibility, therefore it is always "someone else's responsibility".

A lot of the suspicion of Lucy Letby was based on correlations and coincidences. Just as a cricket captain can win the toss 10 times in a row (1/1028 chance) without being accused of cheating, a nurse can be on duty for 5 deaths in a row and it may simply be bad luck. Subsequence is not consequence, and many of us here will be familiar with the "margarine and serial killers" phenomenon: random correlation without causation.

Indeed, there have been cases of surgeons with a worse than average mortality rate, which has been traced to them being so good that they get a disproportionate number of high risk patients.

Add to this that Lucy Letby appeared to be a fairly normal young woman of her age and type. There are photos of her dressed up and socialising with colleagues and looking perfectly average. She was not a sinister creepy loner, she was "just Lucy".

All the weird diary entries etc. are known about now, but at the time that the murders were being committed, they were not. All that was certain was that Lucy Letby was present at the time of, or shortly before, a disproportionate number of infant deaths.

I remember decades ago working at a leisure centre where everyone "knew" that a particular colleague spent too much time alone with young children. This was the late 1970s when we were less aware of the grim reality of paedophilia. In fact, the individual actually used the name Peter Viles, which years later I realised sounded like "Paedophile(s)". Was it his real name? (Mods: I don't think there's enough here to identify the individual and he may well be dead by now anyway as he was many years older than me, and I'm now 60.)

No one thought it was their responsibility to report him, and we all bumbled along treating it as an uncomfortable joke. (In my own defence, I was a teenager with a very junior part time job, and lacking the life experience or confidence to be the one who raised the matter.)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top