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The Death Of Yevgeny Prigozhin (Wagner PMC)

AmStramGram said:
I find it rather subtle :

* In recent history, another great would-be putchist, Lin Biao, died in a plane crash after the failure of his coup against Mao Zedong,
* The accident has killed two birds in one stroke : the "political" and the military boss of Wagner.
* In Greek Mythology, a fatal fall is the standard punishment for those who challenge the gods' preeminence : Bellerophon was unhorsed for attempting to fly up to mount Olympus, and Daedalus' son, Icarus, fell down into the Egean because he wanted to fly too high. Actually, this is not strictly a Greek thing : the myth of Lucifer and his "fallen angels" is another illustration of this theme. The Gods punish those who challenge their order, making them fall down.

The message is all the more striking : it's not Putin who punished Prigozhyn, it's God. Please remember that Putin tries to appear as the defender of the orthodox Church, the new Tsar ... Besides, it is often pointed out that the far-right supported Prigozhyn. Isn't the Russian Far Right ultra-orthodox ? Letting "God" assume the responsibility of punishing the rebel is an astute way to show that he had made the wrong choice, and that Putin was the rightful ruler.
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Sorry but I'm not sure if I understand the point you are making or not. Are you saying God killed Prigozhyn? That is, of course, assuming he's actually dead.
 
kesavaross said:
Sorry but I'm not sure if I understand the point you are making or not. Are you saying God killed Prigozhyn? That is, of course, assuming he's actually dead.
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Hahahaha. No, of course not, especially since I am myself very much an agnostic.

I am simply trying to point out that his death could be symbolically interpreted as such, which would be convenient from a Putinist point of view.

Now regarding my personal opinion : Maybe I'm wrong but I doubt his death was an "accident". So I suspect either Putin or someone who wanted to please Putin had a hand in this crash.
 
AmStramGram said:
Hahahaha. No, of course not, especially since I am myself very much an agnostic.

I am simply trying to point out that his death could be symbolically interpreted as such, which would be convenient from a Putinist point of view.

Now regarding my personal opinion : Maybe I'm wrong but I doubt his death was an "accident". So I suspect either Putin or someone who wanted to please Putin had a hand in this crash.
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Thanks for explaining. Many western leaders wanted him dead as well.
 
Neat.
Yahoo! (that bastion of forthright news reporting) has repeated a recent video of Prigozhin, alive and well and laughing.
*ah*
The wonders of AI.
 
CharmerKamelion said:
I don't know who else was on board that plane, but that is what I find so horrific. One person 'has to die' in Putin's act of retribution - so he casually offs 9 other people as well. I appreciate that it is unlikely that any of them were saints - I guess some may have been Wagner types as well maybe - but even so it is pretty chilling. I suppose it is a bit like the Novichok in Salisbury. Other victims are just collateral.
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Shame about the pilot, co-pilot and the air hostess, though. Her part in the Wagner business can't have gone much past handing out the in-flight drinks.
 
Sabresonic said:
Didn't the whole of the Polish goverment on the way to Russia get blown up or crashed around 15 years ago ?
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Happened in 1944 when the most senior members of the Western-backed provisional government were on the way to Moscow for what they thought would be open talks about how Poland would be governed after the war. (Stalin had indicated to them he might accept a compromise, so call by to the Kremlin and we can talk about it.). The plane carrying them blew up in flight, thus removing all opposition to the puppet government Stalin wanted to install in Warsaw.
 
Stormkhan said:
Or Prigozhin himself faked it, to get the Hell out of Dodge!
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What's the probability he is playing Putin at his own game? One (circumstantial) story said he was completely aware of what was likely to happen, so he called Putin's bluff on being summoned to Moscow, and put one of his own look-alikes on the plane as bait; in the meantime he discreetly relocated to Africa to organise the next stage.
 
AgProv said:
What's the probability he is playing Putin at his own game? One (circumstantial) story said he was completely aware of what was likely to happen, so he called Putin's bluff on being summoned to Moscow, and put one of his own look-alikes on the plane as bait; in the meantime he discreetly relocated to Africa to organise the next stage.
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Makes you wonder whether the lookalikes are able to get plan B in place: "Hmm, the boss has got himself in a bit of a mess. And he wants me to get on this plane. Might be a good day to call in sick."

ETA I am entirely convinced that Wagner fully abides by best practice in HR policies around staff absence. Entirely, mark you.
 
Am I the only one...*puts tinfoil hat on head* who thinks something different than "Putin eliminating a threat"?

Hear me out...this is a stretch but...

Prigozhin also is being treated for cancer

Prigozhin makes a big show of marching on Moscow, just to turn back at the last minute...

Prigozhin is killed in a plane crash

Now, at this moment, Putin is fighting a war that is steadily weakening Russia. A "mysterious" death that can easily be "assumed to be KGB" thus making Putin look ruthless and powerful.

But...here's the stretch...

What if Prigozhin found out his cancer was terminal and cooked up the plan with Putin, as he's dying anyway (actually, I think Putin's rumored to be dying as well?) in order to give the impression that Putin was still powerful? What wold the payoff be for Prigozhin? Dunno, perhaps money or safety for his family?

Probably not, but that's the way my mind slid...
 
What is the Wagner Group doing at the moment? Are they still in Ukraine as a recognisable unit? or there but dispersed and now just part of the russian forces? Or have they relocated to a different theatre entirely?
 
Frideswide said:
What is the Wagner Group doing at the moment? Are they still in Ukraine as a recognisable unit? or there but dispersed and now just part of the russian forces? Or have they relocated to a different theatre entirely?
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They're in Africa. There's a lot going on there but not a word from the western media about it.

The march on Moscow was a ploy to find out who is loyal and who isn't.
 
kesavaross said:
They're in Africa. There's a lot going on there but not a word from the western media about it.

The march on Moscow was a ploy to find out who is loyal and who isn't.
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I was wrong as to where the Wagner group are. They are in southern Belarus.

edit: I wasn't going to add this and I still don't know if it's a good idea or not.

Ukrainian Patriots along with Russian and Belarusian military are preparing a military coup against Zelensky.
 
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kesavaross said:
...Ukrainian Patriots along with Russian and Belarusian military are preparing a military coup against Zelensky.
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Pretty bold statement.

Why would Ukrainian patriots be doing that?

Where's this information from?

For what it's worth I cannot help feeling that Wagner's military capabilities have become somewhat exaggerated in the public mind. They appear to have been successful in areas where they have possessed significant technological and material advantage, but less so where there is more of a balance. The idea that the average Wagner operative will be more effective than a run of the mill Russian grunt when facing an enemy as driven, invested and technologically savvy as the Ukrainian armed forces is, I suspect, somewhat arguable. Their real importance is - I suspect - that their numbers simply represent more meat for the grinder.
 
Spookdaddy said:
Pretty bold statement.

Why would Ukrainian patriots be doing that?

Where's this information from?

For what it's worth I cannot help feeling that Wagner's military capabilities have become somewhat exaggerated in the public mind. They appear to have been successful in areas where they have possessed significant technological and material advantage, but less so where there is more of a balance. The idea that the average Wagner operative will be more effective than a run of the mill Russian grunt when facing an enemy as driven, invested and technologically savvy as the Ukrainian armed forces is, I suspect, somewhat arguable. Their real importance is - I suspect - that their numbers simply represent more meat for the grinder.
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I get the information from various alternative media websites and from news websites that are not 'western'. Our media lies through it's teeth to give either a highly distorted version of events or downright lies.

Zelensky is not seen in his own country as per how he is portrayed in western media.
 
kesavaross said:
I get the information from various alternative media websites and from news websites that are not 'western'. Our media lies through it's teeth to give either a highly distorted version of events or downright lies...
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And you know they are telling the truth, how?

I have no problem with the idea that the picture presented to us on a matter such as this is not the whole one - but I am suspicious of the idea that another story is likely to be true simply because the sources are different.
 
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kesavaross said:
I get the information from various alternative media websites and from news websites that are not 'western'. Our media lies through it's teeth to give either a highly distorted version of events or downright lies.

Zelensky is not seen in his own country as per how he is portrayed in western media.
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Why be coy about it? Give us your sources.
 
Spookdaddy said:
Pretty bold statement.

Why would Ukrainian patriots be doing that?

Where's this information from?

For what it's worth I cannot help feeling that Wagner's military capabilities have become somewhat exaggerated in the public mind. They appear to have been successful in areas where they have possessed significant technological and material advantage, but less so where there is more of a balance. The idea that the average Wagner operative will be more effective than a run of the mill Russian grunt when facing an enemy as driven, invested and technologically savvy as the Ukrainian armed forces is, I suspect, somewhat arguable. Their real importance is - I suspect - that their numbers simply represent more meat for the grinder.
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Because Zelenshky is the worlds richest comdian...e is a stooge
 
Sabresonic said:
Because Zelenshky is the worlds richest comdian...e is a stooge
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The use of 'because' here suggests that you've directly addressed something in the quoted post within your subsequent statement.

You have not.

And again - some sort of source (in this case, the evidence for Zelensky's alleged wealth) would be kind of useful.
 
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There is likely a lot of things we are not told of this conflict. However I am curious what ukranians would gain from overthrowing Zelensky. Do they consider him to be prolonging a losing war?
 
RE: the image of the Wagner Group as an elite is a matter of setting, really.
In their operations in Africa, they were better equipped and trained than the 'locals' but that was then they had far more money than they, thanks to Moscow finance via oligarch Prigozhin. In the Ukraine, they were fighting alongside the regular Russian army who, again, were poorly trained and equipped thanks to the misappropriation of funds and complacency. However, both were up against a European army who might not have the materiel but were better armed and organised than the African states.

As far as a brewing coup against Zelensky, I think it's more misinformation, to scare Ukraine. Everyone knows they have an issue with those dodging the call up, but most who succeed in fleeing to Moldova aren't on Russia's side. Sure, Zelenski may not be seen as the 'plucky hero' at home - after all, he has to oversee a government that has always had issues with corruption (like many nations today) as well as oversee a military in a war. Sure, he might be a rich comedian but he's not behaving like a comic at the moment. Don't forget that the Wagners in Belarus are only part of the entire force and wasn't it Belarus where Prigozhin was 'allowed to leave' by Putin before an unfortunate 'plane ... accident? I'm sure he'd take a cadre along with him.
 
kesavaross said:
I get the information from various alternative media websites and from news websites that are not 'western'. Our media lies through it's teeth to give either a highly distorted version of events or downright lies.

Zelensky is not seen in his own country as per how he is portrayed in western media.
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Try talking to some actual Ukrainians instead of getting your news from Russian propaganda channels. You will find that Zelensky has overwhelming support. Ukrainians want Russia out of their country, they want Russia to be made to pay reparations, they want the war to be over, and they want Putin put on trial.
 
CAN'T MAKE THIS UP: Wagner PMC mercenaries uncovered a giant drug trafficking ring originating out of the Defense Ministry and the FSB in Moscow when they caught one of their own with drugs and had him lead them to the dealer, and so on, up the chain.
They are attached to Russia's 331st Guards Parachute Airborne Regiment in occupied Luhansk.

In response, Moscow sent SOBR and MoD spetsnaz to hunt them down and kill them. They say they will fight to the death.

They sent this video to Vladimir Osechkin for publication and are appealing for help.

Funny thing is - things began to really unravel when the Wagner mercenaries got in touch with a contact at FSB Counterintelligence in Moscow, naively believing the FSB would take the drug trafficking case. In response, special forces have been dispatched to eliminate them.

https://x.com/igorsushko/status/1747934377437475279?s=20
 
This is what happens when your country is run by a dictator with the support of gangster oligarchs and their money.
 
Saw that earlier. It just goes to show the extent of the transference the RF engages in when accusing foes of corruption.
This is either a genuine case of dirty dealing, or a hidden slush fund for supporting off book operations., Though that kind of thing hardly seems necessary in a Russia where Putin has control of the levers of power.
 
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