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The Pyramids Of Giza

It seems coincidental that the present day line of vegetation in an otherwise pretty barren landscape, ends right where the old branch would have run.

Could there still be some water flowing underground along the old route?

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When I was in Egypt last year, our local guide said that the yearly flooding of the Nile used to bring the river up to the pyramids at Giza. Maybe when the flood resided it left a waterway for a while until it dired up each year. There does seem to be a corolation between the vegetation and the edges of the flood.

He said that the workforce were not slaves but seasonal workers who could not farm when the plains flooded. So they worked on the pyramids to get paid partly in food. It was better than starving. At certain sites we saw the visible water marks and residues of the water and mud high up on the sides of temples.

Re: Christopher Dunn. His Power plant theory sounds both amazing and crazy in equal measure.

His theory (Please correct me if I'm wrong): Starting at the bottom: The whole pyramid vibrated at a certain frequency which matched the Earths natural frequency thanks to some sort of Tesla-esque subterranean machine.

A mixture of chemicals were poured via two shafts into the Queens chamber. These released hydrogen due to the vibration. The hydrogen then makes it's way into the Kings chamber via an assending passage and the Grand gallery.

Cosmic microwaves were funnelled down one shaft into the Kings chamber (This shaft is built at just the right dimensions to increase the amplitude of a certain wavelength which activates the hydrogen). High energy microwaves are then output from the Kings chamber via another shaft.

My questions would be (amongst others): What happens to the waste products in the Queens chamber? Why is the structure so massive? What was powering the Tesla machine? How did they harness the Output?
 
Ringo said:
When I was in Egypt last year, our local guide said that the yearly flooding of the Nile used to bring the river up to the pyramids at Giza. Maybe when the flood resided it left a waterway for a while until it dired up each year. There does seem to be a corolation between the vegetation and the edges of the flood.

He said that the workforce were not slaves but seasonal workers who could not farm when the plains flooded. So they worked on the pyramids to get paid partly in food. It was better than starving. At certain sites we saw the visible water marks and residues of the water and mud high up on the sides of temples.

Re: Christopher Dunn. His Power plant theory sounds both amazing and crazy in equal measure.

His theory (Please correct me if I'm wrong): Starting at the bottom: The whole pyramid vibrated at a certain frequency which matched the Earths natural frequency thanks to some sort of Tesla-esque subterranean machine.

A mixture of chemicals were poured via two shafts into the Queens chamber. These released hydrogen due to the vibration. The hydrogen then makes it's way into the Kings chamber via an assending passage and the Grand gallery.

Cosmic microwaves were funnelled down one shaft into the Kings chamber (This shaft is built at just the right dimensions to increase the amplitude of a certain wavelength which activates the hydrogen). High energy microwaves are then output from the Kings chamber via another shaft.

My questions would be (amongst others): What happens to the waste products in the Queens chamber? Why is the structure so massive? What was powering the Tesla machine? How did they harness the Output?
Click to expand...
The workers weren't just paid in food, they were paid in beef and medical care. For that time that's great pay. Keep in mind at the time you were mostly limited to what you could hunt or grow.
The Egyptian state stockpiled grain and meat and used it to support the population through lean times and to fund their massive construction projects.
This richness in grain was part of what made Egypt so valued by later civilizations like the Romans.

As for Dunn, he claims a bunch of things. Like that the Egyptians or whoever actually built the pyramids, had high tech power tools they used to rapidly cut the stone.
There's a bunch of issues with these ideas, but part of the issue I have with his claims is that he only looks at Ancient Egyptian sites.
The Romans cut loads of granite, and took over the quarries in Egypt when it was their turn. Shipping raw blocks back to Rome to be worked there by the artisans. If his claims about the stone work were valid, a good way to prove this would be by comparing the much better attested stone work by the Romans, who had superior tools and techniques to the Ancient Egyptians, though the basic technology used was the same.
 
Floyd said:
It seems coincidental that the present day line of vegetation in an otherwise pretty barren landscape, ends right where the old branch would have run.

Could there still be some water flowing underground along the old route?

View attachment 77063
Click to expand...
If there were water flowing underground along the old route making for the modern border of vegetation, wouldn't we expect some vegetation on both sides of the old route?
 
Something I came across today. Only three relics were ever discovered within the Great Pyramid:

Treasures of the Museum: The Mysterious Dixon Relics​

Back in the fall of 2020, it was excitedly reported a 5,000 year old artifact, one of only three relics ever discovered in the Great Pyramid, was ‘re-located’. The 2020 rediscovery of small fragments of cedar wood, found inside a cigar box, that was misplaced back in 1946, brought new attention to the Dixon Relics. The Dixon Relics are a trio of mysterious objects found in the Great Pyramid back in 1872.

Right from their initial discovery, this valuable trio was separated. The objects were found by Waynman Dixon, and his friend James Grant, while investigating the Great Pyramid in 1872. Dixon had kept two of the objects, which are now housed and displayed at the British Museum, but the pieces of wood were kept by Grant. These cedar fragments were later given to the University of Aberdeen by Grant’s family in 1946. However, at that time they were not catalogued correctly and went missing for over 70 years. Fortunately, they have now been found in the University’s museum collections, and can be reunited.

The Dixon Relics were found inside the air shafts leading from the Queen’s Chamber inside the Great Pyramid. The three objects are described as a small stone ball, a copper hook, and cedar wood fragments.
Click to expand...
https://mysteriouswritings.com/treasures-of-the-museum-the-mysterious-dixon-relics/
 
kamalktk said:
If there were water flowing underground along the old route making for the modern border of vegetation, wouldn't we expect some vegetation on both sides of the old route?
Click to expand...
It depends on the exact route I suppose.
There could be some on either side- or maybe it's not been allowed to grow there, for some reason.
 
Not Giza but close;

Ancient Egyptians May Have Used Hydraulic Lift to Build Pyramid​


An aerial view of the Step Pyramid in Egypt



The Step Pyramid stands more than 200 feet tall and is made from stones weighing more than 650 pounds. Some other researchers are notyet convinced by the idea that it was built using a hydraulics system. Ahmed Gomaa / Xinhua via Getty Images


Standing as much as hundreds of feet tall and made of stones weighing up to 100 tons, Egypt’s pyramids are a remarkable feat of ancient engineering. To this day, scientists aren’t entirely sure how they were constructed.

In a study published Monday in the journal PLOS One, researchers propose that ancient people may have relied on water to build the Step Pyramid of Djoser in Saqqara, Egypt. They suspect a hydraulic system may have helped lift stones from the center of the pyramid.

“This is a watershed discovery,” Xavier Landreau, first author of the new study and CEO of the private research institute Paleotechnic in France, tells Live Science’s Jennifer Nalewicki. “Our research could completely change the status quo [of how the pyramid was built].”
Some other researchers are not yet convinced by the argument.

Judith Bunbury, a geoarchaeologist at the University of Cambridge in the U.K. who did not contribute to the findings, tells Ars Technica’s Jennifer Ouellette that while there is evidence of Egyptians using other hydraulic technologies at the time, there isn’t evidence of a hydraulic lift system.

“While information from this period is sparse, it is not absent, and it is surprising when so many other details of daily life and technologies are recorded in the Old Kingdom tomb scenes and texts like the Red Sea Scrolls, that this type of device is omitted if it were in use,” she says to the publication.

The Step Pyramid of Djoser was built around 4,700 years ago as a burial complex for King Djoser. It’s the oldest important stone building in Egypt, according to Encyclopedia Britannica. The Step Pyramid was the first design to use a pyramid shape for the pharaoh's grave and was innovative in how it raised and precisely stacked stones that had been shaped in a particular fashion, per the new paper.

The stones used for the pyramid weighed more than 650 pounds, and the building stretched to about 200 feet high. Later pyramids would grow to taller heights and were made of even larger stones.

Researchers have proposed many techniques that ancient Egyptians may have used to raise stones to the heights needed to construct the pyramids, including ramps, cranes, hoists and pivots. But “no generally accepted wholistic model for pyramid construction exists yet,” the study authors write.

For the new study, the researchers propose that a massive enclosure to the west of the pyramid could have served as a dam that trapped sediment and water. Water could have then flowed east into a floodplain that was possibly once a lake, and from there into the Dry Moat surrounding the pyramid.

The researchers argue that compartments in the moat could have acted as a water treatment facility, purifying water and regulating its flow.

Finally, the water in the moat may have been used to elevate stones. Water entering a vertical shaft could have allowed a pulley system to raise a float and lower a platform, writes Science News’ Bruce Bower. Then people could have placed rocks on the platform and drained the shaft, lowering the float and raising the platform, per Science News.

Researchers have previously found evidence that ancient Egyptians used hydraulics for other purposes, such as delivering materials, building ports and locks and constructing irrigation systems, the study authors write.

Bunbury tells CNN’s Taylor Nicioli there may have been enough water to support a hydraulic lift. On the other hand, Oren Siegel, an archaeologist at the University of Toronto who was not involved in the research, tells Science News that the proposed dam could not have held enough water from occasional rain to maintain a hydraulic system.

“My biggest concerns about the study are that no Egyptologists or archaeologists were directly involved and that the authors actually question the use of the Djoser Pyramid as a burial site,” Julia Budka, an archaeologist at Ludwig Maximilian University of Munich who did not contribute to the findings, wrote to Live Science in an email, after reading a pre-print version of the paper.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smar...ed-hydraulic-lift-to-build-pyramid-180984843/
 
Floyd said:
Not Giza but close;

Ancient Egyptians May Have Used Hydraulic Lift to Build Pyramid​


An aerial view of the Step Pyramid in Egypt



The Step Pyramid stands more than 200 feet tall and is made from stones weighing more than 650 pounds. Some other researchers are notyet convinced by the idea that it was built using a hydraulics system. Ahmed Gomaa / Xinhua via Getty Images


Standing as much as hundreds of feet tall and made of stones weighing up to 100 tons, Egypt’s pyramids are a remarkable feat of ancient engineering. To this day, scientists aren’t entirely sure how they were constructed.

In a study published Monday in the journal PLOS One, researchers propose that ancient people may have relied on water to build the Step Pyramid of Djoser in Saqqara, Egypt. They suspect a hydraulic system may have helped lift stones from the center of the pyramid.

“This is a watershed discovery,” Xavier Landreau, first author of the new study and CEO of the private research institute Paleotechnic in France, tells Live Science’s Jennifer Nalewicki. “Our research could completely change the status quo [of how the pyramid was built].”
Some other researchers are not yet convinced by the argument.

Judith Bunbury, a geoarchaeologist at the University of Cambridge in the U.K. who did not contribute to the findings, tells Ars Technica’s Jennifer Ouellette that while there is evidence of Egyptians using other hydraulic technologies at the time, there isn’t evidence of a hydraulic lift system.

“While information from this period is sparse, it is not absent, and it is surprising when so many other details of daily life and technologies are recorded in the Old Kingdom tomb scenes and texts like the Red Sea Scrolls, that this type of device is omitted if it were in use,” she says to the publication.

The Step Pyramid of Djoser was built around 4,700 years ago as a burial complex for King Djoser. It’s the oldest important stone building in Egypt, according to Encyclopedia Britannica. The Step Pyramid was the first design to use a pyramid shape for the pharaoh's grave and was innovative in how it raised and precisely stacked stones that had been shaped in a particular fashion, per the new paper.

The stones used for the pyramid weighed more than 650 pounds, and the building stretched to about 200 feet high. Later pyramids would grow to taller heights and were made of even larger stones.

Researchers have proposed many techniques that ancient Egyptians may have used to raise stones to the heights needed to construct the pyramids, including ramps, cranes, hoists and pivots. But “no generally accepted wholistic model for pyramid construction exists yet,” the study authors write.

For the new study, the researchers propose that a massive enclosure to the west of the pyramid could have served as a dam that trapped sediment and water. Water could have then flowed east into a floodplain that was possibly once a lake, and from there into the Dry Moat surrounding the pyramid.

The researchers argue that compartments in the moat could have acted as a water treatment facility, purifying water and regulating its flow.

Finally, the water in the moat may have been used to elevate stones. Water entering a vertical shaft could have allowed a pulley system to raise a float and lower a platform, writes Science News’ Bruce Bower. Then people could have placed rocks on the platform and drained the shaft, lowering the float and raising the platform, per Science News.

Researchers have previously found evidence that ancient Egyptians used hydraulics for other purposes, such as delivering materials, building ports and locks and constructing irrigation systems, the study authors write.

Bunbury tells CNN’s Taylor Nicioli there may have been enough water to support a hydraulic lift. On the other hand, Oren Siegel, an archaeologist at the University of Toronto who was not involved in the research, tells Science News that the proposed dam could not have held enough water from occasional rain to maintain a hydraulic system.

“My biggest concerns about the study are that no Egyptologists or archaeologists were directly involved and that the authors actually question the use of the Djoser Pyramid as a burial site,” Julia Budka, an archaeologist at Ludwig Maximilian University of Munich who did not contribute to the findings, wrote to Live Science in an email, after reading a pre-print version of the paper.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smar...ed-hydraulic-lift-to-build-pyramid-180984843/
Click to expand...
@ramonmercado

Sorry Ramon- I just saw that you already posted this elsewhere, a week before!
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
Researchers from Italy and Scotland, using ground-penetrating radar, claim to have discovered 8 huge vertical cylindrical shafts, surrounded by descending spiral pathways, beneath the pyramids:

View attachment 88214
View attachment 88215

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...ast-city-underneath-Egypts-Giza-pyramids.html
Click to expand...
Wonder if there was once a huge aquifer under that?
Maybe the columns are pistons and the pyramid is a weight forcing them down... to force water up the spiral channel?
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
Researchers from Italy and Scotland, using ground-penetrating radar, claim to have discovered 8 huge vertical cylindrical shafts, surrounded by descending spiral pathways, beneath the pyramids:

View attachment 88214
View attachment 88215

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...ast-city-underneath-Egypts-Giza-pyramids.html
Click to expand...
So this is the paper the claims are based on. I only had time to look at the abstract but it's already got a few red flags.
Synthetic Aperture Radar Doppler Tomography Reveals Details of Undiscovered High-Resolution Internal Structure of the Great Pyramid of Giza
Screenshot_20250322_055424_MEGA.jpg


They state that the pyramid is built out of granite blocks.
What?
Like there's a few things wrong with that statement.
The first is that any amount of reading about the pyramids will tell you the bulk of the stone in the Pyramids is limestone. Now sometimes I see people, even professionals who don't work in Egypt, state it's sandstone. But granite?
They also state the 2.5 ton figure when that's at best an average and fairly misleading.
The stones start out large at the base, steadily getting smaller as you go up.
The first is an amazing whopper of a mistake to include at the beginning of your paper. The second is a common misunderstanding but still something I wouldn't expect to see in a paper that's supposedly going to dramatically shake up our understanding of ancient Egypt.
There is a lot of granite in the great pyramid, no doubt. But that's not even a basic mistake.

If you're doing scans of a site, my understanding is you need to have some understanding of the materials you're working with. If they lead with such a flatly incorrect statement it raises questions about their interpretations of it after.
The millimeter precision thing is another common wisdom but in reality incorrect statement. The pyramids all use a lot of mortar and debris to fill in gaps and level courses.
The cladding stones, now gone from the Great Pyramid, were precisely cut and fit together.
The exposed outer core of the pyramid is fairly rough, and you can see the roughly cut stones.

I have seen comment or's debunking this and stating that the paper doesn't support the claims they're currently making.
But I'm struggling to take the paper seriously in the first place seeing these basic errors at the start.
 

Total solar eclipse may explain end of Egypt's Fourth Dynasty, study suggests​


Shepseskaf's decision to build a mastaba instead of a pyramid has puzzled archaeologists for centuries, as it marked a significant break with dynastic and religious tradition.​


Total solar eclipse may explain end of Egypt's Fourth Dynasty, study suggests. (photo credit: IgorZh. Via Shutterstock)


A recent study by Giulio Magli, an Italian astrophysicist at the Polytechnic University of Milan, suggests that a total solar eclipse on April 1, 2471 BCE may have played a pivotal role in the decline of Egypt's Fourth Dynasty. Magli analyzed the possibility that this celestial event influenced the politics, religion, and stability of ancient Egypt.

The Fourth Dynasty of the Old Kingdom of Egypt, ruling approximately from 2613 to 2494 BCE, was a crucial period marked by the construction of the magnificent pyramids of Giza, considered one of the Seven Wonders of the World. Pharaohs like Khufu, Khafre, and Menkaure consolidated royal power through these imposing architectural structures.

Near the end of the Fourth Dynasty, Pharaoh Shepseskaf ascended to the throne, leading to a shift in architectural practices. Instead of building a pyramid like his predecessors, Shepseskaf decided to construct a mastaba—a large, rectangular tomb resembling a truncated pyramid. This decision marked a break from dynastic and religious tradition, puzzling archaeologists for centuries.


Magli's study explores the possibility that the total solar eclipse, which nearly completely obscured the area of Giza and its capital, Memphis, was interpreted as a bad omen by the ancient Egyptians. "Probably, society and its system of beliefs suffered a deep shock in the face of an extraordinary event that they were incapable of explaining and of which they had no memory," Magli said, according to El Confidencial.

Although the variations in Earth's rotation speed are small, they can cause errors in identifying whether an eclipse could be observed from a specific point or not, and whether it was total or partial in a particular geographical location. The path of totality is trickier to calculate because the Earth's rotation can change in response to factors like changing sea levels, earthquakes, and interactions between the Earth and the moon.

https://www.jpost.com/archaeology/archaeology-around-the-world/article-848523
 
"Probably, society and its system of beliefs suffered a deep shock in the face of an extraordinary event that they were incapable of explaining and of which they had no memory"

"Probably" haha

Of which they had no memory?? If anyone had memory of past events it was the ancient Egyptians, surely, because they could write things down. But I saw one in my lifetime and there was a partial one the other day... surely the idea of total eclipses would be in oral tradition.

It might have been a bit offputting if no-one had predicted it. No one likes a solar eclipse sneaking up on them. And it might have been interpreted as a bad omen. But when things carry on as usual and everyone's largely forgotten about it a few weeks later... tipping the whole society into chaos?? I don't know if I believe that. The rulers can think what they like. But the common people have to get on with finding their dinner and going to work.

surely the downfall of empires are usually environmental or war or disease. Not some rumour that we're all going to die because (e.g.) a dung beetle's made off with the sun.

god I'm getting so cynical.

And if this different type of tomb was triggered by the Event, wouldn't the Event be painted on the wall or something.
You're right. I'm not an Egyptologist. I don't know anything. Though nor is the theorist, he's an astrophysicist
 
Floyd said:

Total solar eclipse may explain end of Egypt's Fourth Dynasty, study suggests​


Shepseskaf's decision to build a mastaba instead of a pyramid has puzzled archaeologists for centuries, as it marked a significant break with dynastic and religious tradition.​


Total solar eclipse may explain end of Egypt's Fourth Dynasty, study suggests. (photo credit: IgorZh. Via Shutterstock)'s Fourth Dynasty, study suggests. (photo credit: IgorZh. Via Shutterstock)


A recent study by Giulio Magli, an Italian astrophysicist at the Polytechnic University of Milan, suggests that a total solar eclipse on April 1, 2471 BCE may have played a pivotal role in the decline of Egypt's Fourth Dynasty. Magli analyzed the possibility that this celestial event influenced the politics, religion, and stability of ancient Egypt.

The Fourth Dynasty of the Old Kingdom of Egypt, ruling approximately from 2613 to 2494 BCE, was a crucial period marked by the construction of the magnificent pyramids of Giza, considered one of the Seven Wonders of the World. Pharaohs like Khufu, Khafre, and Menkaure consolidated royal power through these imposing architectural structures.

Near the end of the Fourth Dynasty, Pharaoh Shepseskaf ascended to the throne, leading to a shift in architectural practices. Instead of building a pyramid like his predecessors, Shepseskaf decided to construct a mastaba—a large, rectangular tomb resembling a truncated pyramid. This decision marked a break from dynastic and religious tradition, puzzling archaeologists for centuries.


Magli's study explores the possibility that the total solar eclipse, which nearly completely obscured the area of Giza and its capital, Memphis, was interpreted as a bad omen by the ancient Egyptians. "Probably, society and its system of beliefs suffered a deep shock in the face of an extraordinary event that they were incapable of explaining and of which they had no memory," Magli said, according to El Confidencial.

Although the variations in Earth's rotation speed are small, they can cause errors in identifying whether an eclipse could be observed from a specific point or not, and whether it was total or partial in a particular geographical location. The path of totality is trickier to calculate because the Earth's rotation can change in response to factors like changing sea levels, earthquakes, and interactions between the Earth and the moon.

https://www.jpost.com/archaeology/archaeology-around-the-world/article-848523
Click to expand...
I find it odd that a group of people could a pyramid, a feat that can't be replicated today, would be superstitious about a highly debatable lunar eclipse and then build a rectangular structure rather than a pyramid a bit ridiculous to say the least.
 
kesavaross said:
I find it odd that a group of people could a pyramid, a feat that can't be replicated today, would be superstitious about a highly debatable lunar eclipse and then build a rectangular structure rather than a pyramid a bit ridiculous to say the least.
Click to expand...
We build computers today and look at the various prominent superstitions around.
We could replicate a pyramid today, architecturally they're less complicated than a skyscraper. It would just be a vanity project.
This century the big vanity projects are space programs, again a bit more complex than a pyramid.
 
I don't know that we have a real equivalent today to rulers of the past like Pharoahs. On average we are more cynical I think. We tend to put that on our ancestors, too. Any rational, reasonable person would think like we do and by their accomplishments they must have been rational and reasonable like me so there's no way they actually believed this superstitious stuff.

Usually by the same people who hold their own religious beliefs that are to members of another faith likewise superstitious.
The separating out of the divine and the mundane is sort of recent in human history. Especially in ancient Egypt the secular state and religion were interwoven. The Pharoah wasn't just the ruler of the country but it's highest priest. A god in his own right, though later Pharoahs would be mildly more humble.
It was their job to maintain the balance of order and chaos.
Now the actual belief of this probably varied, naturally. But strife in Egypt was seen as prof the Pharoah lost or never had the will of the gods on his side. Likewise assassinations, attempted or successful point to cynicism among the hopeful usurper, or at least the belief that if they succeeded the gods favored the replacement.

Keep in mind that the sun was an aspect of their chief god.
And then an unexpected solar eclipse happens while you also have a Pharoah that only ruled 4 years.
Even though I will argue that Menkaures pyramid would have been particularly beautiful if it had been finished, it's still the smallest of the pyramids at Giza. From Sneferu to Khufu to Khafre to Menkaure to Shepseskaf there are some indications that there was somewhat of a decline. Sneferu built three pyramids, Khufu the great pyramid. Khafre used some tricks to make his pyramid seem bigger than his father's. Menkaures was the smallest, though more complex and would have been more ornate.
The pyramid it seems to have been inspired by was described as being a jewel before the Romans looted it for building material.
For whatever reason work stopped on Menkaures pyramid, though evidence at the site shows that work on the other two pyramids continued after the death of the respective ruler.

Now we don't have anything contemporary that points to bitterness towards the Pharoahs, but by the time of Herodotus Khufu at least was imagined as a wicked king. While his mortuary cult was maintained into the Greek era, this may indicate that their rule saw some discontent among the regular people.

So if a Pharoah suddenly dies, the land is pitched into darkness. A savvy ruler, cynic of not, could use this as a time to change.


I probably shouldn't be trying to write this right now, just out of hospital again. It's a bit more stream of consciousness than I prefer
 
Shadowsot said:
I don't know that we have a real equivalent today to rulers of the past like Pharoahs. On average we are more cynical I think. We tend to put that on our ancestors, too. Any rational, reasonable person would think like we do and by their accomplishments they must have been rational and reasonable like me so there's no way they actually believed this superstitious stuff.
Click to expand...
When I post things on here it doesn't necessarily mean that I believe in them- just that I think others may find them interesting.

Having said that, I would have thought that eclipses would certainly have been quite an amazing sight to them back then (as they still are for us now), so surely they would have had some bearing on their belief systems - be it politics or religion, considering their understandings of the world/universe at the time?

I hope you are recovering well and let the streams of consciousness long continue!
 
kesavaross said:
I find it odd that a group of people could a pyramid, a feat that can't be replicated today, would be superstitious about a highly debatable lunar eclipse and then build a rectangular structure rather than a pyramid a bit ridiculous to say the least.
Click to expand...

I agree with your point, but we could build a pyramid today.
 
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