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Check your private messages - Schnor has sent two to you in the last couple of weeks.MindTrap said:
The SCOLE Experiment
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- 1993 apports books david fontana grant solomon in pursuit of physical mediumship jane solomon mediums & mediumship montague keen physical mediumship professor arthur ellison professor david fontana ralph noyes robin foy seances spirit photography the new spiritual scientist the paranormal the scole experiment the scole report the society for psychical research trances
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I only very recently discovered the Scole Experiment (recently being yesterday, 21 August 2003).
I don't have much to add to the arguement really, other than to say that personally, I believe it. So add me to the 'believers' side of the fence.
I don't need to see a truckload of 'physical' evidence, I simply read what was written, and believed it.
Such is the nature of belief.
If it turns out to be a hoax then, quite simply, it turns out to be a hoax. I'll not be ashamed to admit that I believed in it.
I'm interested to know what would prove to people that these things actually happened? There is a lot of talk about laboratory conditions, and strict rules and regulations, but what if something appears during these conditions, what then?
Would you accept that what was happening was a paranormal event, or would you simply see it as a bigger challenge to debunk?
Just curious.......
I don't have much to add to the arguement really, other than to say that personally, I believe it. So add me to the 'believers' side of the fence.
I don't need to see a truckload of 'physical' evidence, I simply read what was written, and believed it.
Such is the nature of belief.
If it turns out to be a hoax then, quite simply, it turns out to be a hoax. I'll not be ashamed to admit that I believed in it.
I'm interested to know what would prove to people that these things actually happened? There is a lot of talk about laboratory conditions, and strict rules and regulations, but what if something appears during these conditions, what then?
Would you accept that what was happening was a paranormal event, or would you simply see it as a bigger challenge to debunk?
Just curious.......
A
Anonymous
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If anyone is still interested, I'd like to direct you to a letter that was just published by Montague Keen on the 21st of August challenging James Randi to pay up.
I have little doubt that messages posted here and read by Mr. Keen had a minute role in his decision to make this challenge and so I find this appropriate to the thread.
The Ultimate Psychic Challenge - A Challenge to James Randi
I have little doubt that messages posted here and read by Mr. Keen had a minute role in his decision to make this challenge and so I find this appropriate to the thread.
The Ultimate Psychic Challenge - A Challenge to James Randi
I watched the 'Ultimate Psychic Challenge' on the Discovery channel a few days ago (It is going to be repeated on Channel 4 this Saturday) I have to say, I was really disapointed with its presentation. Overall, it showed no balence and gave far too much space to James Randi (and his boring card tricks), instead of giving more time to listen to the claims and evidence of those psychics and Investigators invited,one of those being Montague Keen. My ears really pricked up when he mentioned the Scole Group.Just as I thought I was going to hear something really interesting about this, he was cut (or edited )off!!
Bah!!:grrr:
Bah!!:grrr:
A
Anonymous
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I missed the show. Hopefully I can catch it on rerun.
Apparently this was the reason he had taken that trip to the US he had mentioned.
I would imagine that some of Desperado's challenges toward him in Randi's name were still very fresh in his mind at that point.
That must have been an interesting meeting.
Apparently this was the reason he had taken that trip to the US he had mentioned.
I would imagine that some of Desperado's challenges toward him in Randi's name were still very fresh in his mind at that point.
That must have been an interesting meeting.
The 'Ultimate psychic challenge' was really dreadful, The psychics and Invesigators who attended were given minimal time to express their views and offer evidence, whilst the program seemed to lean more heavily on the skeptics debunking. When one psychic (who gave a reading) was attacked for her 'cold' reading, she argued that the tape shown had been edited and the film shown,missed out on other evidence she had given.One example of this was a picture she had drawn of a deceased relative of one of the volunteers who had a reading.
At no point in the show was her argument answered, her opinion seemed to be ignored by both the skeptics and the program makers. James Randi also gave what I believe to be the worst cold reading I have ever seen.Considering he had been given ample help beforehand by researchers,and his 'expertise' in these matters,he was truly amateurish! I would most certainly be asking for my money back in his case!Again, in the case of Montague Keen, we could have heard some interesting opinions,but this was not to be,instead,we were given a sad excuse of a paranormal program in the style of a 'game show' (Voting polls,boring card tricks etc...)
At no point in the show was her argument answered, her opinion seemed to be ignored by both the skeptics and the program makers. James Randi also gave what I believe to be the worst cold reading I have ever seen.Considering he had been given ample help beforehand by researchers,and his 'expertise' in these matters,he was truly amateurish! I would most certainly be asking for my money back in his case!Again, in the case of Montague Keen, we could have heard some interesting opinions,but this was not to be,instead,we were given a sad excuse of a paranormal program in the style of a 'game show' (Voting polls,boring card tricks etc...)
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I didn't see the programme but I've been reading the comments on it, from both sides. Seems to me that the bias and poor organisation of the programme itself combined with Randi's attempts at cold-reading masked anyhing useful that could have arisen. I'm not too sure what was trying to be proved. That people who didn't claim to be psychics can also do cold-reading? We know they can, and the best can do it way better than any purported psychic that I've ever heard of. The fact that Randi, who is evidently not skilled in this department, attempted to do the job himself rather than call in a real expert seems to me to be fogging already established facts and wasting time.
All this is a bit too late for Scole. The fact is, these challenges have only been made after the event. Which is worthless. I have to agree with Randi here. All a person has to do is call him up whilst the phenomena is occuring. The accusations - right or wrong - that Randi is full of himself and isn't particularly good at replicating the effects he criticises, aren't really relevant. The $1m has a set of 12 basic, sensible rules that need to be followed. It's as simple as that. The fact that few take up the challenge is more telling that the fact that nobody has won it. It shows that most of the claims are made by fraudsters, or else surely they'd be rushing to claim the cash.
All this is a bit too late for Scole. The fact is, these challenges have only been made after the event. Which is worthless. I have to agree with Randi here. All a person has to do is call him up whilst the phenomena is occuring. The accusations - right or wrong - that Randi is full of himself and isn't particularly good at replicating the effects he criticises, aren't really relevant. The $1m has a set of 12 basic, sensible rules that need to be followed. It's as simple as that. The fact that few take up the challenge is more telling that the fact that nobody has won it. It shows that most of the claims are made by fraudsters, or else surely they'd be rushing to claim the cash.
The Amazing Rand has no intention of ever
paying out that million. When ever Discovery Channel
or its ilk need someone with an "expert opinion", they
call in Randi.
For example, their program about dowsing:
they have Randi walking with a forked stick, he starts
shaking the stick and walks past the camera and steps
into the ocean. He proved no point, other than to make
dowsers look foolish.
That is his mode and modus.
Intimidation through ridicule.
TVgeek
paying out that million. When ever Discovery Channel
or its ilk need someone with an "expert opinion", they
call in Randi.
For example, their program about dowsing:
they have Randi walking with a forked stick, he starts
shaking the stick and walks past the camera and steps
into the ocean. He proved no point, other than to make
dowsers look foolish.
That is his mode and modus.
Intimidation through ridicule.
TVgeek
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I want to get Old Iron Rod and Derren Brown in the same room together.
Heck if I went for the million that would be a stipulation. Iron Rod keeps an eye on the events and Brown keeps an eye on him.
Heck if I went for the million that would be a stipulation. Iron Rod keeps an eye on the events and Brown keeps an eye on him.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Someone had posted this in another forum I visit. There were two. I'll post the other in the next message.
A
Anonymous
Guest
I find this interesting but absolutely worthless as evidence since we are missing a lot of key information which is neccessary in determining whether this is legitmate mediumship or not.
Still, it is an interesting case.
Still, it is an interesting case.
I have been reading up a bit on Keith Charles, one of the mediums on the Ultimate Psychic challenge. Apparently he does private readings at a Spiritualist church very local to me. He is also doing a public reading in October this year. I might see if I can book an appointment with him ( or attend his public event). In the meantime, I shall be researching on 'cold reading' techniques, so that I can be prepared to give nothing away on the day!!!
Will report back on my findings!:spinning
Will report back on my findings!:spinning
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Yes, do!chieko said:
But don't overdo the 'resistance' - mediums are only human, and might interpret a 'great stone face' as any other person would, and move on!
Be honest, be aware of what your body language might reveal, but don't appear antagonistic.
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The most interesting thing about the first post by MindTrap is that the medium got almost everything wrong, and yet the woman was still amazed at its "accuracy". She remember the few occasions where he said something she could tenuously relate to and forgot all the rest. Perhaps it was the pressure of being in the audience or perhaps, like so many others, she was desperate to believe, but whatever the reason it's plain that the whole thing is bogus. Gee, my dad and grandad are/were called Michael and our cat was put down two months ago - I've got a better hit rate than her already!
The next one is more difficult to follow, but IMO this guy is very, very poor at what he does. "Did you go on holiday somewhere with a pool?" "Do you know anyone called Dave?" OK, he was a bit unlucky with his guesses there as I reckon 99% of the population could answer yes to one or the other of these. Maybe he should start out with simpler questions, like "Is there a man in the family?" or "Have you known a woman with eyes?"
As I've said before, if you want to see this type of thing done well, go and see Derren Brown. He makes these frauds seem like total amateurs and rarely makes a mistake. He barely even asks any questions (once he did it without feedback of any sort - the subject was told just to stare at him and his accuracy was just incredible). And best of all, he doesn't pretend to be talking to the dead! Woohoo!
And talking of dead, is the ebot dead? Where are my new message notifications, I haven't got one in weeks?
The next one is more difficult to follow, but IMO this guy is very, very poor at what he does. "Did you go on holiday somewhere with a pool?" "Do you know anyone called Dave?" OK, he was a bit unlucky with his guesses there as I reckon 99% of the population could answer yes to one or the other of these. Maybe he should start out with simpler questions, like "Is there a man in the family?" or "Have you known a woman with eyes?"
As I've said before, if you want to see this type of thing done well, go and see Derren Brown. He makes these frauds seem like total amateurs and rarely makes a mistake. He barely even asks any questions (once he did it without feedback of any sort - the subject was told just to stare at him and his accuracy was just incredible). And best of all, he doesn't pretend to be talking to the dead! Woohoo!
And talking of dead, is the ebot dead? Where are my new message notifications, I haven't got one in weeks?
Hello all! I'm new! And may I say from the start how impressed I have been by the pitch & throw of this thread (the unfortunate lapses into vituperation aside). Pity it seems to have fallen silent.
Oh well. Here's a thought. Have glanced through Maurice Keen's summarised accounts of the proceedings, and it occured that impressive though the light phenomena were (truly awsome, as Kyle said), they don't actually confirm the persistence of the human personality beyond The Big Sleep. However, some of the more sotto voce events may.
Now, here I'm picking up a thread dropped by Braude - a communication displaying knowledge-how rather than knowledge-that has greater evidential value. Consider the difference between committing the dictionary & grammatical rules of a language to memory (knowledge-that) and being able to participate in a fluent conversation (knowledge-how). The reasoning goes that bog-standard, or even super psi can account adequately for the former, but not necessarily the latter.
Now if we buy into this (a substantial, neon-illuminated if), the conversation Keen reports between a contact and a sitter on celestial mechanics is an instance of knowledge-how, and ought to give pause for thought.
Naturally, all of the preceding assumes the absense of fraud and the reliability of our sources...
Innis, I recall you mentioned you had heard Braude speaking, possibly on this very topic - any thoughts?
Yours Ay
Alexius
Logothete & Phylophlact
Oh well. Here's a thought. Have glanced through Maurice Keen's summarised accounts of the proceedings, and it occured that impressive though the light phenomena were (truly awsome, as Kyle said), they don't actually confirm the persistence of the human personality beyond The Big Sleep. However, some of the more sotto voce events may.
Now, here I'm picking up a thread dropped by Braude - a communication displaying knowledge-how rather than knowledge-that has greater evidential value. Consider the difference between committing the dictionary & grammatical rules of a language to memory (knowledge-that) and being able to participate in a fluent conversation (knowledge-how). The reasoning goes that bog-standard, or even super psi can account adequately for the former, but not necessarily the latter.
Now if we buy into this (a substantial, neon-illuminated if), the conversation Keen reports between a contact and a sitter on celestial mechanics is an instance of knowledge-how, and ought to give pause for thought.
Naturally, all of the preceding assumes the absense of fraud and the reliability of our sources...
Innis, I recall you mentioned you had heard Braude speaking, possibly on this very topic - any thoughts?
Yours Ay
Alexius
Logothete & Phylophlact
A
Anonymous
Guest
If you haven't read 'The Scole Report' (written by M. Keen and published by the SPR) I suggest you do so. I finally got my hands on a copy and all of the issues that had been brought up in this thread as being suspect of fraud were addressed appropriately in that report. For instance the yellowed newspaper and the tape recorder without the microphone.
Also, you will realize the extent to which the SPR investigators atttmpted to prevent fraud. They are not idiots, as some would have you believe. Perhaps they were victims of fraud, but a VERY GOOD fraud it was. I suspect anyone of us who had been there would have come to the same conclusions.
It also raises some other interesting questions which may suggest fraud. For instance the fact that the film experiments that were later locked in boxes to prevent canister swapping were only successfull in the box made by Mr. Alan's son. Film placed in the box that Mr. Keen had constructed produced no results.
Obviously this seems to indicate that the box had some sort of door with which the perps could swap the film canisters.
Still, with all of the strange goings on at Scole it would be very difficult to explain some of the results of those experiments.
Lights entering bodies and reacting to internal conversation, the materialization and dematerialization of a crystal in the hands of A. Ellison, the presence of voices on tape produced in a recorder with no microphone (which were consistent with the conversation that had taken place), etc. and etc..
Read the report.
After reading that report, I feel that most of the arguements posed by Desperado and company (and I expect those sort of arguments) are weak when presented with the full story.
That Scole experimental team sure was a wacky bunch.
Also, you will realize the extent to which the SPR investigators atttmpted to prevent fraud. They are not idiots, as some would have you believe. Perhaps they were victims of fraud, but a VERY GOOD fraud it was. I suspect anyone of us who had been there would have come to the same conclusions.
It also raises some other interesting questions which may suggest fraud. For instance the fact that the film experiments that were later locked in boxes to prevent canister swapping were only successfull in the box made by Mr. Alan's son. Film placed in the box that Mr. Keen had constructed produced no results.
Obviously this seems to indicate that the box had some sort of door with which the perps could swap the film canisters.
Still, with all of the strange goings on at Scole it would be very difficult to explain some of the results of those experiments.
Lights entering bodies and reacting to internal conversation, the materialization and dematerialization of a crystal in the hands of A. Ellison, the presence of voices on tape produced in a recorder with no microphone (which were consistent with the conversation that had taken place), etc. and etc..
Read the report.
After reading that report, I feel that most of the arguements posed by Desperado and company (and I expect those sort of arguments) are weak when presented with the full story.
That Scole experimental team sure was a wacky bunch.
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I've read the Scole Report. I was of a different opinion to MindTrap regarding its contents however. It reinforces everything I said at the beginning of this thread (before I'd read the Report) and certainly everything afterwards. Not only that, it damns and re-damns the entire escapade with every new page. What use are sceptics when the observers can produce such a well-structured and comprehensive hatchet job on what is clearly a simple case of fraud.
* Big White Smile. Holds up Book To Camera*
DESPERADO: "I didn't believe my views could be any stronger on this matter! But having read The Scole Report, I'm now 139.5% sure it's wholly bogus! That's right! 139.5%! And not only that: Thanks to the Scole Report, I have saved over 70hrs of argument on forteantimes.com!"
* Thumbs Up. Cartoon Shot Of Ghost Disappearing Down Toilet *
VOICEOVER: "Scole Report. Sceptics in disguise. Buy YOUR copy TODAY!"
* Big White Smile. Holds up Book To Camera*
DESPERADO: "I didn't believe my views could be any stronger on this matter! But having read The Scole Report, I'm now 139.5% sure it's wholly bogus! That's right! 139.5%! And not only that: Thanks to the Scole Report, I have saved over 70hrs of argument on forteantimes.com!"
* Thumbs Up. Cartoon Shot Of Ghost Disappearing Down Toilet *
VOICEOVER: "Scole Report. Sceptics in disguise. Buy YOUR copy TODAY!"
A
Anonymous
Guest
Hehe
Your messages always bring a smile to my face. 139.5% of anything is quite a bit.
Honestly, I respect your opinion and can understand your point of view. I think the only reason I don't totally agree with you is that some of the phenomena that were produced either:
1) defy all known laws of physics
or
2) are DAMN good examples of illusion (certainly not within the realm of an amatuer magician)
The crystal that A. Ellison handled which dematerialized in front of his eyes is quite a trick.
Small balls of light entering the bodies of those present (so that they could feel the effects on their internal organs) was quite a trick.
Now, obviously I am not an illusionist and am not really in a position to say one way or another whether these are reproducable or not.
I would like to see someone explain these things however.
Maybe David Blain will be up to the challenge once he recovers from his starvation diet.
Your messages always bring a smile to my face. 139.5% of anything is quite a bit.
Honestly, I respect your opinion and can understand your point of view. I think the only reason I don't totally agree with you is that some of the phenomena that were produced either:
1) defy all known laws of physics
or
2) are DAMN good examples of illusion (certainly not within the realm of an amatuer magician)
The crystal that A. Ellison handled which dematerialized in front of his eyes is quite a trick.
Small balls of light entering the bodies of those present (so that they could feel the effects on their internal organs) was quite a trick.
Now, obviously I am not an illusionist and am not really in a position to say one way or another whether these are reproducable or not.
I would like to see someone explain these things however.
Maybe David Blain will be up to the challenge once he recovers from his starvation diet.
Gents,
I also read the report (very soon after it was released) and only wish I had a copy on me now - alas, it is in England, I am not.
Now, Desp: consider the following:
Some mediumship is fraud, so all mediumship is fraud.
Mediumship may be fraud, so it must be.
Both of these arguments amount to nothing. Invalid, mate. Non sequiters.
Having read the report, I agree that fraud cannot be excluded in some, but not all instances. However, there are instances (the controlled evp tests, for example) were fraud can only be posited if we challenge the integrity of the investigative team. Valid enough, but there seems to be no question mark over their honesty, so...
Moreover, that we cannot exclude fraud does not imply fraud. Only that fraud is plausible. Conversely, the absense of evidence for fraud or blatant incredulity lends credence to the claim that what occurred was anomolous, but does not confirm it.
If I have a contention, it is that the spectacular, physical events don't actually take us any further philosophically, as they imply only that they are anomolous and directed by some agency. Survival? Super psi? Djinn?
However, the examples of mental mediumship were communicators displayed skills at varience with the medium's suggest the intervention of a personality - and that does have implications.
Do any of the physical phenomena have specific implications? Mindset, over to you
I also read the report (very soon after it was released) and only wish I had a copy on me now - alas, it is in England, I am not.
Now, Desp: consider the following:
Some mediumship is fraud, so all mediumship is fraud.
Mediumship may be fraud, so it must be.
Both of these arguments amount to nothing. Invalid, mate. Non sequiters.
Having read the report, I agree that fraud cannot be excluded in some, but not all instances. However, there are instances (the controlled evp tests, for example) were fraud can only be posited if we challenge the integrity of the investigative team. Valid enough, but there seems to be no question mark over their honesty, so...
Moreover, that we cannot exclude fraud does not imply fraud. Only that fraud is plausible. Conversely, the absense of evidence for fraud or blatant incredulity lends credence to the claim that what occurred was anomolous, but does not confirm it.
If I have a contention, it is that the spectacular, physical events don't actually take us any further philosophically, as they imply only that they are anomolous and directed by some agency. Survival? Super psi? Djinn?
However, the examples of mental mediumship were communicators displayed skills at varience with the medium's suggest the intervention of a personality - and that does have implications.
Do any of the physical phenomena have specific implications? Mindset, over to you
A
Anonymous
Guest
What puzzles me about the whole paranormal business is - if telepathy, messages from the dead, clairvoyance and so forth are real, then why aren't they more evident in daily life? Why do we have to go to mediums and other "experts" in the paranormal to see examples?
For instance, why have I never gone to the local shop and got a message from some dead relative via the woman behind the counter, viz: "Oh, your Aunty Vera's just left a message for you - she says the remote's behind the plantpot." ? Why have I never had a a mug of tea demateralise in my hand? Why have I never had a telepathic message from Hubby telling me the car's broken down so he won't be home for tea, and btw, his mobiles's out of battery which is why he's sending this message mentally? Why, on the occasions when I have just missed the bus, it's friggin sleeting down with freezing rain and the next bus isn't for half an hour, why have I never suddenly found myself sitting on the bus I was trying to catch with no memory of how I got there?
Forget all this stuff about testing and experimental procedures - why does it never work in normal life, for everyone, when it's really needed?
Really, I have to conclude that the "paranormal", as popularly accepted, does not exist.
For instance, why have I never gone to the local shop and got a message from some dead relative via the woman behind the counter, viz: "Oh, your Aunty Vera's just left a message for you - she says the remote's behind the plantpot." ? Why have I never had a a mug of tea demateralise in my hand? Why have I never had a telepathic message from Hubby telling me the car's broken down so he won't be home for tea, and btw, his mobiles's out of battery which is why he's sending this message mentally? Why, on the occasions when I have just missed the bus, it's friggin sleeting down with freezing rain and the next bus isn't for half an hour, why have I never suddenly found myself sitting on the bus I was trying to catch with no memory of how I got there?
Forget all this stuff about testing and experimental procedures - why does it never work in normal life, for everyone, when it's really needed?
Really, I have to conclude that the "paranormal", as popularly accepted, does not exist.
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'Here, here', but then again I swing from fraud to truth depending on the weather.
Following on from Annasdottirs post, i've posted something like these questions before but does anybody have any idea about explanations
Are mediums biologically or psychologically different from 'everyone else'. If not can the mediumship be learned? If they are different, how are they different and how do they know they have the skill?
Does the medium have any influence over the paranormal phenomena or are they merely a gateway?
Why do the same paranormal entities keep appearing time after time at specific times and venues and to specific mediums?
Of the billions of spirits that have passed on from this earth why is there not more occurances of channelling a Congolian (?) speaking chap with no knowledge of anybody in the room?
Do different mediums ever channel the same entity?
Why can't the scole results be replicated under 'laboratory' conditions?
Following on from Annasdottirs post, i've posted something like these questions before but does anybody have any idea about explanations
Are mediums biologically or psychologically different from 'everyone else'. If not can the mediumship be learned? If they are different, how are they different and how do they know they have the skill?
Does the medium have any influence over the paranormal phenomena or are they merely a gateway?
Why do the same paranormal entities keep appearing time after time at specific times and venues and to specific mediums?
Of the billions of spirits that have passed on from this earth why is there not more occurances of channelling a Congolian (?) speaking chap with no knowledge of anybody in the room?
Do different mediums ever channel the same entity?
Why can't the scole results be replicated under 'laboratory' conditions?
A
Anonymous
Guest
If these things were to happen as you describe then they certainly would not be considered "paranormal". Also, why would you assume that the reality should follow some logical pattern that you have developed intuitively? Nature is full of anomolies that are difficult if not impossible for us humans to explain in terms of our current understanding of our surroundings.
I think you miss the point.
That's like saying, why is the universe expanding when the force of gravity should be causing the universe to contract? We can tell that it is expanding but the implications are unpleasant to think about and can't be easily explained by our current understanding of the physical laws of nature, so it must not be true after all.
I think you miss the point.
That's like saying, why is the universe expanding when the force of gravity should be causing the universe to contract? We can tell that it is expanding but the implications are unpleasant to think about and can't be easily explained by our current understanding of the physical laws of nature, so it must not be true after all.
Actually, those are some good questions, and the onus is on those of us who entertain the thought that it isn't all doggy do-dos to attempt an answer.
So let's see...off the top of my head...here goes...
Why doesn't psi manifest outside the curtained booths? Actually, maybe it does. Research suggests that psi manifests in response to intense need, to varying degrees, dependent upon the conditions and the person. Personally, I go with the idea that it is always in the background, occasionally bursting forth into the limelight.
Why do some people display more than others? Important question, and frankly I don't know. There does seem to be a correlation between spiritual discipline and psi, however: for example, here in Istanbul, what we would consider psychical phenomena are taken for granted in Sufi circles, where they are ofen refered to as 'the menstruation of saints' - a by product of spiritual fecundity. Also, it has been said that there is an element of heredity, though I don't know if that line has been well explored.
Why not more Congolese indeed! Sitters' expectation may have something to do with it, as may the prejudices seated in the unconscious nether regions of the mediums. And of course, if we are dealing with survival, what, really, would some geezer from the Ituri have to say to a band of spiritualists in Blackburn?
Mediumship, having said that, is not an entirely Western thing; might be worth checking out accounts of spirit possession within Comdomble or Umbanda circles in Brazil, for instance. Restores the cultural balance a little and may show where all the Congolese actually do go.
Have rambled on a bit....I'd best call a halt. Shall see if I can dig something up on that 'Why does the same red indian chief pop up all over the shop' poser, 'cos I recall finding something interesting on that very question a while back. Or it may have been indigestion.
Mindtrap: hate to abuse you as Maurice Keen's favoured medium, but...I wonder, what does Mr. Keen consider to be the most suggestive aspect of the Scole investigation? The report undoubtedly says, but my copy is on the other side of Europe, and it would be interesting in anycase to hear his views with the benefit of a few years hindsight.
Right - enough. I'm off for a cigarette.
Yours Ay
Alexius
So let's see...off the top of my head...here goes...
Why doesn't psi manifest outside the curtained booths? Actually, maybe it does. Research suggests that psi manifests in response to intense need, to varying degrees, dependent upon the conditions and the person. Personally, I go with the idea that it is always in the background, occasionally bursting forth into the limelight.
Why do some people display more than others? Important question, and frankly I don't know. There does seem to be a correlation between spiritual discipline and psi, however: for example, here in Istanbul, what we would consider psychical phenomena are taken for granted in Sufi circles, where they are ofen refered to as 'the menstruation of saints' - a by product of spiritual fecundity. Also, it has been said that there is an element of heredity, though I don't know if that line has been well explored.
Why not more Congolese indeed! Sitters' expectation may have something to do with it, as may the prejudices seated in the unconscious nether regions of the mediums. And of course, if we are dealing with survival, what, really, would some geezer from the Ituri have to say to a band of spiritualists in Blackburn?
Mediumship, having said that, is not an entirely Western thing; might be worth checking out accounts of spirit possession within Comdomble or Umbanda circles in Brazil, for instance. Restores the cultural balance a little and may show where all the Congolese actually do go.
Have rambled on a bit....I'd best call a halt. Shall see if I can dig something up on that 'Why does the same red indian chief pop up all over the shop' poser, 'cos I recall finding something interesting on that very question a while back. Or it may have been indigestion.
Mindtrap: hate to abuse you as Maurice Keen's favoured medium, but...I wonder, what does Mr. Keen consider to be the most suggestive aspect of the Scole investigation? The report undoubtedly says, but my copy is on the other side of Europe, and it would be interesting in anycase to hear his views with the benefit of a few years hindsight.
Right - enough. I'm off for a cigarette.
Yours Ay
Alexius
*cig clamped between lips, Alexius types*
'Do mediums ever channel the same spirit?'
You've touched on my fetish - the Cross Correspondences.
In brief: around the early decades of the last century, a series of seemingly related messages where received by mediums in more than one country, purporting to come from a common source - notably the famed (and very much deceased) Myers & Gurney, former luminaries of the early years of the SPR.
The communicators would 'drop into' circles uninvited, and deposit cryptic messages, laced with recondite references, puns & anagrams. The mediums would then be directed to forward the messages to named recipients (on one occasion, at least, an accurate residential address). In toto, over 3000 messages were identifyed in a process of reconstruction that spanned decades.
Controversial & utterly enthralling. Often disparaged by present day pundits, but personnally, I rate it highly. It may pose a major challenge to the super-psi argument - if psi is triggered by need, what are we to make of messages that were not needed, expected, understood or relevent to their recipients?
And not a red indian or Atlantean in sight.
'Do mediums ever channel the same spirit?'
You've touched on my fetish - the Cross Correspondences.
In brief: around the early decades of the last century, a series of seemingly related messages where received by mediums in more than one country, purporting to come from a common source - notably the famed (and very much deceased) Myers & Gurney, former luminaries of the early years of the SPR.
The communicators would 'drop into' circles uninvited, and deposit cryptic messages, laced with recondite references, puns & anagrams. The mediums would then be directed to forward the messages to named recipients (on one occasion, at least, an accurate residential address). In toto, over 3000 messages were identifyed in a process of reconstruction that spanned decades.
Controversial & utterly enthralling. Often disparaged by present day pundits, but personnally, I rate it highly. It may pose a major challenge to the super-psi argument - if psi is triggered by need, what are we to make of messages that were not needed, expected, understood or relevent to their recipients?
And not a red indian or Atlantean in sight.
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thanks Alexius
Some more info on cross correspondences
It may be that we can't put forward earthly arguements with regard to a phenomenon like this because the entities are not party to the same 'laws'.
But, if these dead fellows from the SPR wanted to comunicate proof of their spirit existance there are far more convincing ways to do this rather than communicating some naff punns and various 'shape' identifyers to people who it could be argued have a vested interest in prooving their existence. Why make it so cryptic, so convoluted?
Some more info on cross correspondences
It may be that we can't put forward earthly arguements with regard to a phenomenon like this because the entities are not party to the same 'laws'.
But, if these dead fellows from the SPR wanted to comunicate proof of their spirit existance there are far more convincing ways to do this rather than communicating some naff punns and various 'shape' identifyers to people who it could be argued have a vested interest in prooving their existence. Why make it so cryptic, so convoluted?
A
Anonymous
Guest
Er... But......Alexius said:
Psi doesn't manifest when it is most intensely needed. To take one example - the WTC tragedy. Hundreds of people jumped, in sheer horrible desperation, in total and utter despair, trying get away from the flames. Any of them would have done anything that it took to survive. Not a single one of them teleported or levitated themselves to safety.
I could fill pages and pages with similar examples, as could any of you.
Research be blowed. If psi worked, we'd have the Psi Olympics on every four years and nobody would die by violence.
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Your right Annasdottir.
This can lead us to the conclusion that any psi skill is either unique to mediums or has to be enhanced through training.
Which would lead us to assume that to use 'IT' MUST mean that the medium knows what 'IT' is and the mechanics behind using 'IT'.
Therefore, where are the manuals?
or
During times of extreme anxiety, pressure, danger etc our brain reverts to its most basic primative survival mode which excludes the more delicate skills the medium may employ. They victims of the WTC dissaster and others were far from quietely seated in a darkened room
This can lead us to the conclusion that any psi skill is either unique to mediums or has to be enhanced through training.
Which would lead us to assume that to use 'IT' MUST mean that the medium knows what 'IT' is and the mechanics behind using 'IT'.
Therefore, where are the manuals?
or
During times of extreme anxiety, pressure, danger etc our brain reverts to its most basic primative survival mode which excludes the more delicate skills the medium may employ. They victims of the WTC dissaster and others were far from quietely seated in a darkened room