Time Or Dimensional Slips

[Ghost In The Machine]

I've shared my experiences on a number of forums over the years and even though I've not been 'cross examined' very often, the vibe generally has often made me feel fundamentally let's say, disbelieved. Which I get because I'd disbelieve it too. But I'm thick skinned and would prefer people to question me and maybe at the end of the day, disbelieve me - than not have some sort of outlet, myself, for the accumulated "wtf" of this stuff, when I try to think about it, on my own.

Yet I think when unaccountable things have happened to you, if you've half a brain you will keep recounting it to try and make sense of it. Here is the only place I have ever felt accepted, in any real sense, and even if I made anyone sceptical, it doesn't matter because the questions you'd ask are only the ones I've been asking myself, all these years. And I'd like to be half as clever as most of you. Question and explore is good though as I suspect, people who have had 'paranormal' experiences, are seeking the answers more than anyone else, is.

Developing theories, with some accumulated data, is a very attractive idea. Bottom line is, many of us just want to understand. I wish I'd found this forum years ago, because I would have saved my effort elsewhere. Being open-minded is the start - and that open-ness to the paranormal is what marks this forum out. I wouldn't want to have recounted my experiences to slack-jawed, naive 'believers' any more than to hostiles.

In terms of time slips, our stupid ghost cat that husband and I both saw... I wonder if someone collated the data, how many of these are witnessed simultaneouly by more than one person and, when that has happened - are their accounts identical? I'm intrigued because as I said upthread, husband experienced this, at the time, as a 'time slip' - I 'just' thought it was a ghost, seeing only the cat and not any background. But it sounds to me like my husband saw a sort of cross section or slice through time because he was aware of stuff growing on the verge that he knew wasn't there - and I wasn't at all.

As a corollary of all this, I also wonder how many accounts we'd classify as 'ghost stories' aren't time slips? Is there an overlap? How would we define it?

If the thing we saw hadn't been a shadow that turned into a transparent thing - if what we'd seen was a solid cat, that looked entirely like you expect a cat to look - we wouldn't even have thought of it as paranormal or even remembered it. The Bold St accounts and others often seem to be of quite solid, but slightly off kilter, realities. Which is far more interesting than our experience.

 

[CuriousIdent]

Okay, Carl. As an example (using the first two cases mentioned at the start of this thread)

The Avignon Rural Hotel


Location: Avignon region, South-east France

Date: Summer 1979

Type: Type 4 – Acknowledged interaction with individuals during the Timeslip

Persons Involved: Cynthia and Len Gisby, Pauline & Geoff Simpson

Number of Persons Involved: 4

Interactions:

• Social – Speaking with another individual who vocally acknowledges or responds to subject's vocal comment.
• Physical – Interacting with Objects or Environment.
• Sensory – The subject tastes or consumes food or drink.

Source of Testimony: Interviews with both couples as part of as dramatised re-enactment of their account for ITV’s Strange but True? in 1995 (View on YouTube HERE)

Description: Two couples whilst holidaying in southeast France spent a night staying unplanned at a small rural hotel, which they stumbled across while driving through the Avignon region of France.

The building was notably old as a structure, but not considered initially to be anything more than a rustic hotel in a rural region. It was noted that there was no glass panes in the windows, only wooden shutters. The beds were noted as high wooden frames, feather mattresses.

Both couples took a photograph of the wives of each couple leaning out of a bedroom window together – the photos taken by their husbands from outside, at ground level. Several other photos were also taken in the grounds.

They were served dinner that evening with period cutlery. ‘Not a large dining room. half a dozen or so tables’. They enjoyed their meal.

At breakfast the following morning two Gendarme officers came in to the hotel interacting with the owners, buying cognacs. A woman in a formal evening-wear dress also entered the dining room - they presumed having returned from ‘an all night party’ who looked ‘very old fashioned’.

Likewise the Gendarmes wore uniforms which seemed a little old fashioned. Len said he’d ‘never seen anything like them’.

Len Gisby asked one of the officers for directions back to the autoroute. The officer did not understand what he meant by ‘autoroute’. He seemed not to understand the term itself (which means motorway) to Len's belief and understanding. He eventually gave them directions back to Avignon after he recognised the name.

Upon settling the bill as they were leaving the party were dumbfounded to find that they had only been charged 19 francs for all four having stayed and dined. Len did not dispute it. They paid and left.

Upon returning to Avignon on the return leg of their tour they attempted to find the hotel once again. But despite searching the area 4 times (the area in which they had been sure it had been located) they could not find it a second time.

Upon returning home after their trip, and having their photos developed, Geoff and Pauline noticed that the photos which he had taken of the wives leaning of those first floor shutter windows had not come out on the camera. Nor any of the other photos they took at the hotel. They should have been on the film. Geoff was adamant that he took them. But they were not on the film.

After consulting Len and Cynthia they found that the equivalent photos they took were also missing. Again, not on the section of film they should have been. As if they had never been taken.

Len and Cynthia became of the opinion that they may have somehow traveled back into the past and began their own research. They say that the Gendarme officers’ uniforms they believe they saw, and the woman’s dress, match images in books from the 1900s.

Strange But True? noted that both couples returned to the area ‘A few years ago’ (for 1995) and found the same road again.

But ‘all the trees were much taller than they remembered. And tantalisingly where the hotel had stood they found the crumbling ruins of an old building. None of the Locals could remember if it had ever been a hotel. But they did say the building next door had once been the village police station, around the turn of the century’.


Notes: It is uncertain at what point Len and Cynthia took the opinion that they may have slipped back in time, though they did not seem to have been of the opinion at the time of these events. It is unclear as to whether Pauline and Geoff share that opinion.

Neither couple spoke particularly strong French. While it may have seemed as if the Gendarme officer did not understand the term ‘Autoroute’ it is not impossible that this was more a case of not understanding the broken French being spoken to him in general.

Len, who settled the bill, cannot account for how the Francs he paid with were accepted as legal tender. They would have differed from the notes/coins used at the turn of the 20th century. But he maintains that they were accepted as means of payment.

Nor was any comment made upon their car.

Upon returning this would have been 15 years later. The house being derelict and trees being taller are not in themselves unusual for that kind of timescale.

Strange But True? attested that 19 francs would have roughly been correct for a stay at such a establishment at the turn of the 20th Century.


EDIT: This post is now #643 in this thread and can therefore be inked back to if people want to reference it.

 

[CuriousIdent]

And next:

The shopfront from another time


Location: Bold Street, Liverpool City Centre

Date: July 1996

Type: Type 3

Persons Involved: “Frank”, an off-duty policeman from Melling and an unknown teenage girl.

Number of Persons Involved: 2

Interactions:

• Visual – Change in Environmental Appearance and/or attire of persons in the vicinity.

Source of Testimony: Tom Slemen. This used to be on Tom Slemen’s website. URL’s for that seem to have expired now but a copy of the account can be found in the Facebook group for ‘Haunted Liverpool’ in which it is presumably printed/included.

Description: I’ll copy and paste this one:


“The following story is an account of a man who inadvertently strolled into the past early in July 1996 in Liverpool City Centre.

Shop in another dimension - Cripps of Bold Street, Liverpool, in 1955

Frank, an off-duty policeman from Melling, and his wife Carol, were in Liverpool one Saturday afternoon shopping. At Central Station, the couple split up. Carol went to Dillons Bookshop in Bold Street to purchase a copy of Irvine Welsh's book, Trainspotting, and Frank went to a record store in Ranelagh Street to look for a CD.

About twenty minutes later he walked up the incline near the Lyceum which leads out to Bold Street, intending to meet up with his wife in the bookshop, when he suddenly noticed he had somehow entered an oasis of quietness. Suddenly, a small boxvan that looked like something out the 1950s sped across his path, beeping as it narrowly missed him. Frank noted that the van had the name 'Caplan's' emblazoned on its side. When the policeman looked down, he noticed that he was standing in the road, and immediate thought that was strange, because the last time he had seen the bottom of Bold Street, it had been pedestrianized. Frank crossed the road and saw that Dillons Bookshop was no longer there. In its place stood a store with the name 'Cripps' over its two entrances. The policeman was understandably confused. He looked in the window of Cripps and saw no books on display, but womens' handbags and shoes.

The policeman turned around and saw that the people were wearing clothes that would have been worn in the Forties and Fifties, and this really unnerved him. He realised that he had somehow walked into the Bold Street of forty-odd years ago. Suddenly, Frank sighted a girl of about twenty, dressed in the clothes of a mid-1990s girl; hipsters and a lime-coloured sleeveless top. The bag she carried had the name Miss Selfridges on it, which really reassured the policeman that he was still somehow partly in 1996. It was a paradox, but the policeman was slightly relieved, and he smiled at the girl as she walked past him and entered Cripps.

As he followed her, the whole interior of the building changed in a flash to the interior of Dillons Bookshop. The policeman was back in his own time.

He grabbed the girl by the arm at the entrance of the bookshop and asked her: "Did you see that then?" and the girl calmly said, "Yeah. I thought it was a new shop that had opened. I was going in to look at the clothes, and it's a bookshop."


The girl just laughed, shook her head, and walked out again. Frank said the girl looked back and shook her head in disbelief. When he told his wife about the incident, she said that she had not noticed anything strange, but Frank was really adamant that he had not hallucinated the episode.”


Notes: Tom Slemen also states

“I gave an account of this strange timeslip on the Billy Butler show, and within minutes, people were ringing me and Billy at Radio City to tell us that in the late 1950s and early 1960s there had been a store called Cripps in the exact location where Dillons Bookshop now stands, and there had also been a firm called Caplan's in existence around the same time. What's more, I also received letters and phone calls from listeners who had also experienced strange things in the part of Bold Street where the policeman stepped into another era”

It is unclear when this phone-in occurred.

It is also unclear as to who "Frank" is.

 

[CuriousIdent]

As a corollary of all this, I also wonder how many accounts we'd classify as 'ghost stories' aren't time slips? Is there an overlap? How would we define it?

I have actually wondered the same. One of the things which brought me to this thread was vague similarities with the subject of a thread I started about the A15 Lincolnshire Road Ghost, in the ghosts forum. That thread centred around a dozen odd callers responding to one Account given on a This Morning live phone in on the subject of Ghosts, from the late 90s.

After one particular caller's testimony of seeing a ghost step out into the road in front of him a lot of other people phoned in to say that they, or somebody they were related to, had seen something similar. Either on tat exact stretch of road or in nearby fields.

While not every account was identical there were a high enough number of people reporting things which tallied. Namely:

• A white or 'negative image' coloured figure
• It stepped out from the side of the road ahead of them.
• It lingered briefly in their view.
• It was holding one hand up.

Now most people are likely to say 'That's a ghost' but arguably the only thing we can say with any certainty is that this appears to be a figure repeating an action either in the same location or close to it.

As if a moment of time is being replayed every once in a while.

I'm not sure you could entirely deem that as a time slip. But it could plausibly share some of the hallmarks of one.

One thing which has never conclusively been proven, but which This Morning's researchers certainly mentioned in their (not wonderful) investigation was that there may have been a plague pit in this region, and that the figure may have been warning people off who were approaching.

Oh, and I'm glad you feel welcome here, Ghost In The Machine. I do find this to be a positive place to discuss things, likewise.

 

[Carl Grove]

Quite, my apologies, I didn't mean to criticise - I have a project of my own which require very much the sort of data collection you're discussing and I've been pondering the way to proceed to make the best work out of it. It seems to me though that collecting any such data must be 'standardised' to some extent, as otherwise one cannot even make draw decent inferences.


I agree with this. It's a problem. It also seems to me there is no career mileage in replicating another's work, which of course should be mandatory to see if it works at least twice and psychology is littered with examples of stuff which simply cannot be replicated. I rather dislike the 'literature review' research process as well, it seems so unnecessary - a friend of mine described it as building a wall brick by brick from other works (which you can easily select to support your argument...) and finally with a kind of 'ta-da' putting your own small brick on top. Then you have to knock it all down and do it all over again for the next paper. What a pain and worse what a monumental waste of time and resources. Some might say.

Seems we agree strongly about the academic method. What I have found over the years, having been brought into various research projects, is (sadly) that hardly anybody seems to be able to look a phenomenon squarely in the face, as it were, and to think about it in a sensible way. The knee jerk reaction is always "Check the literature," "What are the main theories?" and "How can we get a publishable paper out of this?" So researchers are mostly reacting, not to the phenomenon supposed to be under study, but to what has been previously done, by whom, and working out a response to that. So we get a secondary response, and then more responses to that, and get farther away from the original issue. And this whole -- I was going to say "mess" -- is reinforced by the academic community, and success is measured by secondary criteria, and of course status and financial reward.

 

[Carl Grove]

Hi Carl,

Thanks for such a detailed reply.




Not a problem. You’ve found your way here, so I certainly don’t see you as some kind of backwards technophobe. Not at all.

There are ways to do this. At the very basic end of things I guess we could come up with a standardised text based template on here. Like a form for entering Reports - which has the same fields on it, into which you could post all information about each Account.

e.g. Location, Date, Type 1/2/3/4, Name of Persons Involved, Number of Persons Involved, Source of Testimony.

You could have a Description field for details of the account, and a Notes section for anything you felt was worth pointing out to others. (for example – how reliable you felt the source to be, or if there is another account at this location which it may relate to).

You could even do that here in this thread. It could then be taken up by others to create a database or Spreadsheet into which those reports could be entered. But at least you’d have a standardised way of presenting details of each account. If you posted them here other posters could also comment and provide any further information they might find also.

Might be worth a thought.



I’m not 100% sure I know of which you are referring to by the ‘Colisseum case’. Was this the gladiator trient wound time-slip?

Again, I think this would be another reason for standardising how each Account is presented in this thread.

When you refer to 'the <name here> case' it's not always going to be abundantly clear to others on this thread as to what you are referring to - as it might be an account you or others have mentioned in this thread, but equally it could be an account from your own files (which has not been mentioned here).

At 20+ pages already it would be great to dedicate individual posts to particular accounts, presented as a report.

That way you would be able to say, for example, ‘This is similar to the <insert name here> account (which you can find on Page <number here> post number <number here>’.

If there were two accounts of this you could have two separate reports linked in the notes section.

I think it might also be worthwhile making a distinction between an account which you have found a reference to (online or in a publication) and a case which you have yourself investigated or had contact with the persons involved.

For the former I would suggest using the term Account - a standalone testimony or account of events which you have not personally investigated.

And Case - for those which you have investigated, contacted the persons involved and had correspondence with.

What do you think?

Out of curiosity, what was the second account at this location? How did it differ and was it within the same time period?




‘CREEPYpasta’ is a horror or supernatural variation of the term ‘COPYpasta’, used to describe a story (usually an urban myth or ‘chain-letter’ style story) which has been copied and pasted into many emails, forum or social media posts.

It is work of fiction, but usually a credible sounding enough to convince people that it is real, and they will then share the story themselves.

And for many examples of Creepypasta, that’s as far as they go. A curious supposed testimony on an internet forum, responded to by a few other posters.

Sometimes though, in this digital age they will get shared by enough people to go viral . At which point they effectively gain a life of their own, spreading like a game of Chinese Whispers, changing details gaining new faux testimonies...

The most notable example of the past decade would probably be that of The Slender Man (or simply Slenderman) – a myth purely created as a crafted piece of fiction on the Something Awful forums, which became a monster which others tried to prove not only existed but in one disturbing case actual resulted in two teenagers killing a third, claiming to have done so to appease/please.

But let’s not digress too far towards that. (There is a Slenderman thread somewhere on these forums you can hunt down if you’re interested, but it doesn’t directly relate to this thread at all)

Creepypasta isn’t always designed to scare, but it is designed to be plausible and to trick the reader into believing that its genuine provenance. I’m not saying that's necessarily the case here. But obviously you do have to consider that when somebody posts a story like this to an online forum they *may* be doing it as creepypasta. Which is why it’s always a good idea for others to quiz them for additional information.





And that would indeed be the best way to get the most out of a source. Getting their testimony via interview or other interaction. You can never be 100% they’re genuine, sure. But at least you have a credibly sourced testimony – nobody can question that.





Great. I think we’d all love to hear some more of those in testimony form.





Always a possibility. Especially if the author has been a little unclear over how they have phrased things – details left, questions unasked, contradictory turn of phrase. If a tabloid article or a collection designed to scare or excite? But at least as a published source you are more likely to be able to contact the Author to seek clarification I suppose.





I don’t reject anything wholesale. And I can certainly see that you and at least one other poster are quite passionate in pursuing that theory.

For me personally it is not of as much interest as the testimonies themselves. The accounts of individual experiences and the details thereof. What I think interests me the most is not so much explaining but finding some common notion of a... method of reproduction I guess. A site where a timeslip is more likely to occur. A place where a glimpse into the past may occur.

That, I would say, is more likely to be discernible from finding trends in the accounts of people’s experiences than in trying to produce a scientific theory of what is causing them, right of the bat.

I’m not criticising you for trying to, but I think that exploring testimonies in detail would be the best place to start.





On that we definitely do agree. I do also, incidentally, agree with Coal where he suggests in standardising interview questions for people you contact. That would definitely help to get consistent details from each person you speak to, which could be cross-referenced with other similar accounts. It would be worth thinking about.





Certainly. I can think of at least one TV phone in for a road ghost case (discussed elsewhere on this board) where people were perfectly willing to share that they had experienced something very similar to an earlier caller, but did not want to appear on air or have their name mentioned for fear of ridicule.

A forum like this, though? I think it’s a little different. You will very occasionally have the odd sceptic trying to tear your account to shreds, but the majority of us are (I believe) open to the notion of weird and unnerving stuff having happened to people. We’re not quite so quick to judge. To question and explore? Yes. But not insult or belittle for having experienced something.

I hope so, at least.

Carl, if I get a chance during my lunch hour I'll draft up two example Reports, to show you the kind of thing I mean.

 

[Ghost In The Machine]

I have actually wondered the same. One of the things which brought me to this thread was vague similarities with the subject of a thread I started about the A15 Lincolnshire Road Ghost, in the ghosts forum. That thread centred around a dozen odd callers responding to one Account given on a This Morning live phone in on the subject of Ghosts, from the late 90s.

After one particular caller's testimony of seeing a ghost step out into the road in front of him a lot of other people phoned in to say that they, or somebody they were related to, had seen something similar. Either on tat exact stretch of road or in nearby fields.

While not every account was identical there were a high enough number of people reporting things which tallied. Namely:

• A white or 'negative image' coloured figure
• It stepped out from the side of the road ahead of them.
• It lingered briefly in their view.
• It was holding one hand up.

Now most people are likely to say 'That's a ghost' but arguably the only thing we can say with any certainty is that this appears to be a figure repeating an action either in the same location or close to it.

As if a moment of time is being replayed every once in a while.

I'm not sure you could entirely deem that as a time slip. But it could plausibly share some of the hallmarks of one.

One thing which has never conclusively been proven, but which This Morning's researchers certainly mentioned in their (not wonderful) investigation was that there may have been a plague pit in this region, and that the figure may have been warning people off who were approaching.

Oh, and I'm glad you feel welcome here, Ghost In The Machine. I do find this to be a positive place to discuss things, likewise.

Cheers!

I saw that This Morning, when it went out and it always stuck in my mind. Think I posted elsewhere, I had a friend many years ago, who saw the Stocksbridge Bypass ghost - a monk and a boy. At the time he saw it, he wasn't local to that area - he'd moved there from elsewhere - and had no idea it was A Thing. It was only years later, when he saw something on TV about it, he realised he'd even seen a 'ghost'. He'd thought it was odd, seeing a monk by the road, but by no means supernatural. (I once did a residential course at a monastery, and the monks did indeed wear brown robes and sandals so I wouldn't have batted an eyelid, either).

I think the Good Morning one stuck in my head as it reminded me so strongly of my friend's experience.

 

[Carl Grove]

Well, Curiousident, thanks for a lot of detailed food for thought. I really need to properly organise my materials, whether or not via data bases, if only so I can quickly locate cases of interest (e.g. the other Coliiseum case) which I can recall but not in detail!

The detailed reports that you use as illustrations come out well and that is the kind of format I would use, plus my categorisation system which is still being modified. At the moment, domestic issues are preventing me from being very active on these issues, although I am still giving them a lot of thought. A key factor that also needs to be included is "Physicality" -- that is, the factors indicative of a physical interaction with the time visited. These can be social (people having eye contact, speech, etc.) or physical (tactile, exchange of money or goods, consumption of food or drink, changes in light level or temperature, changes in the weather, in the ground surface etc.).

I understand what you mean about Creepypasta now, and I can assure you that I have seen very little evidence of it in the time slip accounts I have come upon. Maybe if Time Slips become "popular" on the net (God forbid!) something of that sort may occur, but I can only think of a handful of dubious instances.

It seems obvious now that many "ghost" cases probably are unrecognised time slips. Another case in the Bury area, a third possible time slip experienced by Chris Jensen Romer, which I didn't quote in my Rougham report, involved Chris and his mother riding the bus out from the town centre to where they lived just off the Mildenhall Road. On the bus they met one of Chris's teachers, and she and Chris's mum had a nice chat on the ride (which takes about ten minutes). They got off (I presume at the bus stop opposite the Co-Op, as it is today), and the teacher said goodbye and they watched her cross the road on the way down to her house (not sure exactly where it was). And later they learned that she had actually died a few days prior to the meeting. There was a similar case in the 80s at Braintree, where an elderly couple met a young man they knew well and had a long chat. (But when they saw in the paper that he had died they reported it to the police, who actually stopped the funeral and took the corpse away for examination.)

Finally, thank goodness for the Fortean Times forums, which do have an unusually large number of sensible, open-minded people. Above Top Secret is also quite good, but Unexplained Mysteries seems to have attracted more hostile types in recent years.

 

[Coal]

Seems we agree strongly about the academic method. What I have found over the years, having been brought into various research projects, is (sadly) that hardly anybody seems to be able to look a phenomenon squarely in the face, as it were, and to think about it in a sensible way. The knee jerk reaction is always "Check the literature," "What are the main theories?" and "How can we get a publishable paper out of this?" So researchers are mostly reacting, not to the phenomenon supposed to be under study, but to what has been previously done, by whom, and working out a response to that. So we get a secondary response, and then more responses to that, and get farther away from the original issue. And this whole -- I was going to say "mess" -- is reinforced by the academic community, and success is measured by secondary criteria, and of course status and financial reward.

That's a good phrase "the academic method", which I think may have diverged from the "scientific method" due to the criteria you mention. The BPS has noticed this problem, I'm watching with interest to see what they actually do about it. Couple of other points- I find that it's often possible to read a paper and spot the deliberate gap in the research left 'for the next paper' and that also consider, that if the effort poured into sycophantic referencing were freed to work on the methodology and the sample size it might not do any harm.

Feynman wrote a neat book call "The pleasure of finding things out". The existing research methodology in psychology, to my mind, can stifle curiosity and reward safeness. But what do I know?

 

[Carl Grove]

That's a good phrase "the academic method", which I think may have diverged from the "scientific method" due to the criteria you mention. The BPS has noticed this problem, I'm watching with interest to see what they actually do about it. Couple of other points- I find that it's often possible to read a paper and spot the deliberate gap in the research left 'for the next paper' and that also consider, that if the effort poured into sycophantic referencing were freed to work on the methodology and the sample size it might not do any harm.

Feynman wrote a neat book call "The pleasure of finding things out". The existing research methodology in psychology, to my mind, can stifle curiosity and reward safeness. But what do I know?

I think that whatever will be done, if anything, will be too little, too late. The mindset has been established and generations of students have been socialised (brainwashed, if you prefer) to react in a certain way to get the rewards of group membership, a common belief system, attention, fame and fortune. And I don't think it's just in Psychology, either. A huge majority of scientists behave exactly like members of cults and sects, it's a basic human response; there is no real difference between "Our theory is superior to Smith's" and "Our religion is the only true one." Or "Johnson's approach is unscientific" and "That is a heresy."

The ironic thing is that most of the towering figures in the history of science operated outside this framework -- Newton never formulated theories and hypotheses, he just developed a way of explaining the raw data in a neat mathematical way. He never ran "experiments" that would be recognised as such today. He wasn't anxious for publicity and even kept his invention of the calculus a secret until someone else came up with the same idea. He worked alone and was modest about his own achievements. Einstein was outside the academic fold when he came up with relativity (he was a patents clerk).

We haven't even mentioned the so-called "peer reviewing" system. I'm sure you have probably encountered reviews by people whose abysmal ignorance of both the phenomenon under study and general research techniques is quite astounding. I got tired and disillusioned by all this years ago, and when I was forced to give it all up due to a serious eye problem, part of me actually breathed a sigh of relief.

Feynman was always a genuine scientist and I shall look out for that book.

 

[CuriousIdent]

Well, Curiousident, thanks for a lot of detailed food for thought. I really need to properly organise my materials, whether or not via data bases, if only so I can quickly locate cases of interest (e.g. the other Coliiseum case) which I can recall but not in detail!

Indeed. I think that quite a few of us would be interested to hear many more of the Accounts you’ve collected over the years. I hope that you do find the time at some point, even to drip feed a few onto here.

The detailed reports that you use as illustrations come out well and that is the kind of format I would use, plus my categorisation system which is still being modified. At the moment, domestic issues are preventing me from being very active on these issues, although I am still giving them a lot of thought. A key factor that also needs to be included is "Physicality" -- that is, the factors indicative of a physical interaction with the time visited. These can be social (people having eye contact, speech, etc.) or physical (tactile, exchange of money or goods, consumption of food or drink, changes in light level or temperature, changes in the weather, in the ground surface etc.).

Agreed. That really is an important factor (if not the most important factor) in any of these accounts.

In terms of categorisation, to go back to page 3 of this thread, these were the 4 Types you defined for a Time Slip experience:

• Type 1: A vague or distorted image of a past or future thing, person or event.
• Type 2: A clear sharp and totally realistic visual image. A witness will see it and have no idea that it is anything other than an ordinary image.
• Type 3: A sharp realistic image that surrounds the witness. People in the image seem unaware of the witness's presence, and there is no physical contact with elements in the perceived environment.
• Type 4: A sharp realistic image, in which the witness is completely integrated; they can communicate with people around them, handle objects, and even purchase things.

Now to some degree those *do* cover the kind of interaction you appear to be talking about. But not in the kind of detail that it perhaps could. So I guess the question would be as to whether you’d wish to alter or further define those Types of experience above or whether you rather create a new category to cover that.

Given that the level of interaction is generally going to be limited to Type 4 experiences (and some Type 3) I would personally recommend a separate field. Maybe call it something like ‘Types of Interaction’. A Of which you could have the following options:

• Visual – Change in Environmental Appearance and/or attire of persons in the vicinity.
• Visual – Change of Weather or Time of Day observed.
• Social – Eye Contact Only.
• Social – Speaking with another individual who acknowledges your comment.
• Physical – Interacting with Objects or Environment.
• Physical – Physically interacting with another person or persons.
• Physical – A change in Temperature experienced.

Are there any others types of interaction which you can think of that you would want adding to that? In terms of considering this category in a database it would have to be a Tick All Which Apply field.

I understand what you mean about Creepypasta now, and I can assure you that I have seen very little evidence of it in the time slip accounts I have come upon. Maybe if Time Slips become "popular" on the net (God forbid!) something of that sort may occur, but I can only think of a handful of dubious instances.

Well that’s promising to hear. Again, if you get the chance to share any further examples with this thread I’m sure that we’d be happy to hear of them.

It seems obvious now that many "ghost" cases probably are unrecognised time slips.

I won’t write off the possibility of a haunting being some kind of genuine ghost as being utterly implausible. When talking about unexplained I never write anything off entirely. But certainly in ghost cases where multiple witnesses have described seeing a ‘ghost’ performing the same set of actions in each account it is quite plausible that this could be related to time slip phenomenon.

One thing worth noting in the A15 road ghost sightings which I referred to above is not only that many people have reported seeing a very similar figure stepping out into their path (with one hand raised) but also that there is one environmental factor which could be worthy of note. When This Morning researched these accounts back in the late 90s (Although to what degree they 'researched' will divide people, I'm sure) they were unable to do a live followup broadcast from close to the site itself because they discovered that it received significant interference from the radar equipment at nearby RAF Cranwell (located literally down the road from the turnoff where these cases had been reported).

The two broadcast signals would have been at odds.

It depends whether you believe in some kind of Stone Tape theory or something here, but I don't believe it is implausible to consider that some kind of radar or radio frequency broadcast very close by may be interacting with something in the local environment and thereby may be in some way responsible for these sightings. Creating some kind of brief and occasional 'echo' of events from the past being seen in the present as the signal and environment interact. This might plausibly explain how a figure does repeat the same actions over and over again.

I could be wrong, but I believe that some people have also put forward the concept that overhead power lines may also possibly have had a connection to the Bluebell Hill road ghost Case also (although there the accounts have varied far more). You’d be best asking Hermes about that, though. I may have the wrong end of the stick.

Another case in the Bury area, a third possible time slip experienced by Chris Jensen Romer, which I didn't quote in my Rougham report, involved Chris and his mother riding the bus out from the town centre to where they lived just off the Mildenhall Road. On the bus they met one of Chris's teachers, and she and Chris's mum had a nice chat on the ride (which takes about ten minutes). They got off (I presume at the bus stop opposite the Co-Op, as it is today), and the teacher said goodbye and they watched her cross the road on the way down to her house (not sure exactly where it was). And later they learned that she had actually died a few days prior to the meeting.

Interesting. And a plausible Time Slip of only days. A Type 4 experience with Verbal interaction. Also has the hallmarks of a ghost encounter, of course. What was the source for this one?

There was a similar case in the 80s at Braintree, where an elderly couple met a young man they knew well and had a long chat. (But when they saw in the paper that he had died they reported it to the police, who actually stopped the funeral and took the corpse away for examination.)

Now that one could plausibly be provable. If the Police were involved there would have to be an official report somewhere. You don’t take a corpse for investigation without having to document it.

Finally, thank goodness for the Fortean Times forums, which do have an unusually large number of sensible, open-minded people. Above Top Secret is also quite good, but Unexplained Mysteries seems to have attracted more hostile types in recent years.

Agreed. These boards might not be quite as active as they were in the early 2000s but those of us who remain tend to be a decent bunch. I’m more than happy to post here.

 

[Ghost In The Machine]

A huge majority of scientists behave exactly like members of cults and sects, it's a basic human response; there is no real difference between "Our theory is superior to Smith's" and "Our religion is the only true one." Or "Johnson's approach is unscientific" and "That is a heresy."

Not long back, I made this precise point on another forum (not a 'scientific' forum but one where people were discounting anything not backed up by peer-reviewed research papers). As it just struck me they were acting like a cult, and precisely like the very 'non scientific' people they were trying to shoot down.

It went down like a lead balloon, and I was left wondering if I was the only one who was seeing this behavioural pattern as being distinctly cultish.

 

[Coal]

Not long back, I made this precise point on another forum (not a 'scientific' forum but one where people were discounting anything not backed up by peer-reviewed research papers).

Although the review process has been diluted (imo), any work that's not been peer-reviewed has also to be considered with great care. Even peer-review based on mutual back-slapping has some merit as no-one will generally put their name on a piece of complete crap.

As it just struck me they were acting like a cult, and precisely like the very 'non scientific' people they were trying to shoot down.

It went down like a lead balloon, and I was left wondering if I was the only one who was seeing this behavioural pattern as being distinctly cultish.

You're not the only one, and as you say it's a human thing for an in-group to close ranks in this way.

Consider though; you produce a piece of work you want taken seriously and offer it to 'scientists'. They immediate say you've not done the work in an 'approved way' (e.g. not formatted to APA, not peer reviewed, not conformed to an accepted approach to data collection and/or analysis etc.).

So, if you want 'the scientists' so take work seriously, why not use the format and method that will make it harder for them to reject?

 

[Ghost In The Machine]

Although the review process has been diluted (imo), any work that's not been peer-reviewed has also to be considered with great care. Even peer-review based on mutual back-slapping has some merit as no-one will generally put their name on a piece of complete crap.


You're not the only one, and as you say it's a human thing for an in-group to close ranks in this way.

Consider though; you produce a piece of work you want taken seriously and offer it to 'scientists'. They immediate say you've not done the work in an 'approved way' (e.g. not formatted to APA, not peer reviewed, not conformed to an accepted approach to data collection and/or analysis etc.).

So, if you want 'the scientists' so take work seriously, why not use the format and method that will make it harder for them to reject?

Yes, you'd have no choice. And it's interesting applying those criteria to these kind of phenomena. Beyond that, though, I do sometimes wonder if we haven't made science the new god, kinda thing...

 

[Coal]

Yes, you'd have no choice.

Well, that's true of any situation where you are trying to persuade.

And it's interesting applying those criteria to these kind of phenomena. Beyond that, though, I do sometimes wonder if we haven't made science the new god, kinda thing...

So 'science' means (thanks wiki): Science is a systematic enterprise that builds and organises knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe.

However, as you say, some are 'believers' in science' as a thing; "If it's 'science' it must be true", so it's become an immutable truth for some, a god with a white lab-coat.
:bish:

Conversely almost nothing makes me 'move on' quicker than the phrase "Science doesn't know everything!" announced as though it proves some esoteric argument. Life's too short for that discussion.

 

[CuriousIdent]

To use the next instance referred to in this thread:

The Best Kept Village of 1976


Location: Bampton, Devon

Date: 1993

Type: Type 2 - A clear sharp and totally realistic visual image. A witness will see it and have no idea that it is anything other than an ordinary image.

Persons Involved: Alf & Eileen Roberts

Number of Persons Involved: 2

Interactions:

• Visual – Change in Environmental Appearance and/or attire of persons in the vicinity.

Source of Testimony: Interviews with both as part of as dramatised re-enactment of their account for ITV’s Strange but True? in 1995 (View on YouTube HERE )

Description:Whilst on holiday in Devon at some point of 1993, Alf and Eileen Roberts were driving one evening back towards their hotel in Dunster, when they managed to get lost.

They found themselves in a village they didn’t recognise. They stopped at a green at the top of the village to get out a map and try to work out which way to go. At the centre of this village green they saw a huge wooden sign displaying

“Bampton 1976 – Best Kept Village”

The sign was noted as being well kept and well polished.

Across the area they could see window boxes, tubs and hanging baskets which were packed with blooming flowers “A blaze of colour. It was Really lovely” according to Eileen. This included a large flower bed on the village green itself.

They eventually found their way out of their village and returned to their hotel in Dunster. They hadn’t intended to visit Bampton, but were impressed by the floral display and decided to return the following day to take some photos.

But upon returning they found that all of the flowers from their previous visit had gone. When they reached the village green the sign was no longer there, nor the flower bed they had seen the day before. ‘It was just grass’ now, according to Alf.

It was as if they had returned to ‘the same village, but another time’ in Eileen’s words.

Alf recalls on arriving the first time he had dropped a cigarette which had fallen on the map they had. He recalls there having been some smoke and some kind of singe mark on the map. But checking the map later on he discovered that the mark was no longer there ‘As if it never happened’.

As they arrived at the village on their first trip they checked their watches and noted that it was 19:30. As they left the village they checked again and ‘It was still seven thirty. ‘As if we hadn’t been in the village’ attests Alf.

Strange But True? attests that while it sounds unlikely the Best Kept Village award for 1976 was won by Bampton.


Notes: It is unclear how long the couple took trying to find their way out using their map. It is also unclear as to wjhat time of year it was when this visit took place.

Bampton was indeed the Winner of the Village category awarded for RHS Britain in Bloom in 1976.

What may throw a slight spanner in the works is that it was also joint winner in 1993 under the ‘Large Village’ category.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britain_in_Bloom#1964_to_1999

National Judging for Britain in Bloom takes place in August of the awarded year, providing that a village was already awarded a regional prize to qualify in the June-July period of the previous year.

It is unclear as to exactly what time of year this holiday took place. But given that Bampton did also win the award in 1993 it seems unlikely that the town would have been as barren in terms of flowers as described in their return visit. Especially with regards to flower beds rather than baskets, boxes or tubs.

 

[Carl Grove]

A huge majority of scientists behave exactly like members of cults and sects, it's a basic human response; there is no real difference between "Our theory is superior to Smith's" and "Our religion is the only true one." Or "Johnson's approach is unscientific" and "That is a heresy."

Not long back, I made this precise point on another forum (not a 'scientific' forum but one where people were discounting anything not backed up by peer-reviewed research papers). As it just struck me they were acting like a cult, and precisely like the very 'non scientific' people they were trying to shoot down.

It went down like a lead balloon, and I was left wondering if I was the only one who was seeing this behavioural pattern as being distinctly cultish.

People don't want to accept that this is the case, but the pattern is clear when you look for it. I often watch TV documentaries on scientific topics, and the "experts" interviewed often show a number of characteristics common to cult membership -- over-enthusiasm ("this is the most important scientific question in human history"), the curious smile that always accompanies attempts to convince non-believers of the truth of your claim (in science, religion or politics-- e.g. Mrs Thatcher and Tony Blair), the casual dismissal of alternative viewpoints etc. And I recall my own feelings when I got my first degree and felt that I was at last "A Psychologist", with a tribe to identify with, and a set of beliefs ("Scientific" ones of course!) to adhere to -- although this was something felt rather than thought through. It wasn't until I started reading Idries Shah that the pattern suddenly became obvious, indeed unmissable. Now the real scientists, the genuine original thinkers, aren't like that (although of course they have no option but to work within the current paradigm or risk nobody ever seeing their findings), and often it's only when they end their official career that they may become a little more forthcoming about some things. Vincent Reddish I think is a good example. Would he have done that pioneer work on dowsing, and published it, while he was still an Astronomer Royal?

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

Regarding the famous Avignon case, how I would love it to be true, but I remain rather sceptical, hence bumping my post from 18 months ago:

"I note that the Strange But True account of the French hotel incident didn't explore the hoax hypothesis or even mention that it was claimed to have occurred near the town of Avignon (which, phonetically, sounds rather like 'avin you on'). As for the furnishings in the hotel, they were not that anachronistic for rural France at the time. The first time I stayed at my then girlfriend's parents' house in a small country village around 1979/80, I was a little surprised to find such high beds, with medieval-looking bolsters instead of pillows and very rustic wooden shutters on the windows (which were glazed though!). It does strongly suggest a hoax or, at best, an exaggeration/elaboration to me. The two couples obviously did stay in a rustic country inn and, as they had never visited France before, found the very old-fashioned furnishings something of a culture shock. Seeing a couple of rural gendarmes, possibly wearing rain-capes to protect against early morning mist, added to the feelings of strangeness. As the travellers hardly spoke any French, it was not surprising that the policeman looked baffled until he heard the name Avignon, at which point he gave them directions they struggled to understand. As for the bill, why did the guy not keep it as a souvenir, if he was so astonished at the low cost? Is it possible that he misheard 'cent dix-neuf francs Monsieur' for 'dix-neuf' and, being unfamiliar with the currency, maybe even handed over some 50 franc notes, thinking they were the equivalent of fivers? Finally, in the days before sat-navs, it was very easy to get lost in rural France, which has thousands of lookalike villages, tree-lined roads and ruined buildings. Hence, when they thought they had found the same location, it was different, but their imagination (or possibly desire to generate a great story) elaborated the rest."

 

[Carl Grove]

Indeed. I think that quite a few of us would be interested to hear many more of the Accounts you’ve collected over the years. I hope that you do find the time at some point, even to drip feed a few onto here.





Agreed. That really is an important factor (if not the most important factor) in any of these accounts.

In terms of categorisation, to go back to page 3 of this thread, these were the 4 Types you defined for a Time Slip experience:

• Type 1: A vague or distorted image of a past or future thing, person or event.
• Type 2: A clear sharp and totally realistic visual image. A witness will see it and have no idea that it is anything other than an ordinary image.
• Type 3: A sharp realistic image that surrounds the witness. People in the image seem unaware of the witness's presence, and there is no physical contact with elements in the perceived environment.
• Type 4: A sharp realistic image, in which the witness is completely integrated; they can communicate with people around them, handle objects, and even purchase things.

Now to some degree those *do* cover the kind of interaction you appear to be talking about. But not in the kind of detail that it perhaps could. So I guess the question would be as to whether you’d wish to alter or further define those Types of experience above or whether you rather create a new category to cover that.

Given that the level of interaction is generally going to be limited to Type 4 experiences (and some Type 3) I would personally recommend a separate field. Maybe call it something like ‘Types of Interaction’. A Of which you could have the following options:

• Visual – Change in Environmental Appearance and/or attire of persons in the vicinity.
• Visual – Change of Weather or Time of Day observed.
• Social – Eye Contact Only.
• Social – Speaking with another individual who acknowledges your comment.
• Physical – Interacting with Objects or Environment.
• Physical – Physically interacting with another person or persons.
• Physical – A change in Temperature experienced.

Are there any others types of interaction which you can think of that you would want adding to that? In terms of considering this category in a database it would have to be a Tick All Which Apply field.





Well that’s promising to hear. Again, if you get the chance to share any further examples with this thread I’m sure that we’d be happy to hear of them.





I won’t write off the possibility of a haunting being some kind of genuine ghost as being utterly implausible. When talking about unexplained I never write anything off entirely. But certainly in ghost cases where multiple witnesses have described seeing a ‘ghost’ performing the same set of actions in each account it is quite plausible that this could be related to time slip phenomenon.

One thing worth noting in the A15 road ghost sightings which I referred to above is not only that many people have reported seeing a very similar figure stepping out into their path (with one hand raised) but also that there is one environmental factor which could be worthy of note. When This Morning researched these accounts back in the late 90s (Although to what degree they 'researched' will divide people, I'm sure) they were unable to do a live followup broadcast from close to the site itself because they discovered that it received significant interference from the radar equipment at nearby RAF Cranwell (located literally down the road from the turnoff where these cases had been reported).

The two broadcast signals would have been at odds.

It depends whether you believe in some kind of Stone Tape theory or something here, but I don't believe it is implausible to consider that some kind of radar or radio frequency broadcast very close by may be interacting with something in the local environment and thereby may be in some way responsible for these sightings. Creating some kind of brief and occasional 'echo' of events from the past being seen in the present as the signal and environment interact. This might plausibly explain how a figure does repeat the same actions over and over again.

I could be wrong, but I believe that some people have also put forward the concept that overhead power lines may also possibly have had a connection to the Bluebell Hill road ghost Case also (although there the accounts have varied far more). You’d be best asking Hermes about that, though. I may have the wrong end of the stick.





Interesting. And a plausible Time Slip of only days. A Type 4 experience with Verbal interaction. Also has the hallmarks of a ghost encounter, of course. What was the source for this one?





Now that one could plausibly be provable. If the Police were involved there would have to be an official report somewhere. You don’t take a corpse for investigation without having to document it.





Agreed. These boards might not be quite as active as they were in the early 2000s but those of us who remain tend to be a decent bunch. I’m more than happy to post here.

A lot to reply to again! OK, your interpretation of my typology is correct, and physicality will be a characteristic of all Type 4 cases. But there are a small number of cases where Type 3 is the appropriate category as you can't say that the witness has fully integrated into the environment of the time slip BUT there are some features of interaction -- e.g. I recall an Australian case where the witness drove through a small outback town where a historical pageant seemed to be in progress, and all the people seemed totally unaware of his car driving through their midst -- all except one small boy who couldn't stop staring at it. In another case a witness in a church became aware that the building had become changed and a congregation in old fashioned clothing were there. But they were vague and semi transparent. Nevertheless some of them spotted the witness and reacted to her. So I have had to modify the typology in this and other ways. When I was still planning my catalogue I wrote a short intro that focused on this issue in some detail, and I will try to add a link to that here.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/22xy0234pwhztxm/Time%20slip%20catalogue.pdf?dl=0

This and the other problem cases do complicate the system but they are a small minority, so most cases could still be classified as Types 1-4 fairly easily.

The two most physical and potentially most evidential cases that I have come upon are probably the Leeds incident where one of the two witnesses walked straight through a person in present time, and a US case where a young man was given a late night lift by an elderly couple; when he met them shortly after (to him) they had visibly aged, and remarked how young he still looked after several years. In the first case that witness has already died and after a short exchange of emails her sister has suddenly become unreachable -- I fear the worst. However, I have a good idea of the identity of the 3rd witness who saw the slip from outside, but so far have failed to be able to make contact. (If anybody in the Leeds area wants a thankless but valuable job tracking her down, please let me know!) In the second case, the witness told me that he had met the couple a second time since posting his experience; the wife thought it was a Godly intervention to save the young man from some danger, but the husband seems to have been in denial or something. Interestingly, both the sisters in Leeds felt that the slip was to save them from some kind of accident at a nearby bus stop.

I think we agree on ghosts and time slips. Since writing my Rougham report I have met a witness who, having just passed her driving test in the mid 1980s, took her sister on her first solo drive. On Blackthorpe, where my wife had her odd experience in the same period, they saw a man in Victorian clothing walking a dog about to cross in front of them. Just a few moments later the same man and dog appeared doing the same actions farther up the road.

I got the account of Chris's teacher directly from him. If his doppelganger experience in Bury was a time slip (I have added a subcategory for this kind of case), and his experience at Thetford Priory was a time slip (it is named as such on You Tube), that means he has had 3 time slips!

The Braintree case was reported in the News of the World:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dp55uvgqunal2jy/Man%20in%20morgue.JPG?dl=0

 

[Ghost In The Machine]

A lot to reply to again! OK, your interpretation of my typology is correct, and physicality will be a characteristic of all Type 4 cases. But there are a small number of cases where Type 3 is the appropriate category as you can't say that the witness has fully integrated into the environment of the time slip BUT there are some features of interaction -- e.g. I recall an Australian case where the witness drove through a small outback town where a historical pageant seemed to be in progress, and all the people seemed totally unaware of his car driving through their midst -- all except one small boy who couldn't stop staring at it. In another case a witness in a church became aware that the building had become changed and a congregation in old fashioned clothing were there. But they were vague and semi transparent. Nevertheless some of them spotted the witness and reacted to her. So I have had to modify the typology in this and other ways. When I was still planning my catalogue I wrote a short intro that focused on this issue in some detail, and I will try to add a link to that here.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/22xy0234pwhztxm/Time slip catalogue.pdf?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/22xy0234pwhztxm/Time slip catalogue.pdf?dl=0
This and the other problem cases do complicate the system but they are a small minority, so most cases could still be classified as Types 1-4 fairly easily.

The two most physical and potentially most evidential cases that I have come upon are probably the Leeds incident where one of the two witnesses walked straight through a person in present time, and a US case where a young man was given a late night lift by an elderly couple; when he met them shortly after (to him) they had visibly aged, and remarked how young he still looked after several years. In the first case that witness has already died and after a short exchange of emails her sister has suddenly become unreachable -- I fear the worst. However, I have a good idea of the identity of the 3rd witness who saw the slip from outside, but so far have failed to be able to make contact. (If anybody in the Leeds area wants a thankless but valuable job tracking her down, please let me know!) In the second case, the witness told me that he had met the couple a second time since posting his experience; the wife thought it was a Godly intervention to save the young man from some danger, but the husband seems to have been in denial or something. Interestingly, both the sisters in Leeds felt that the slip was to save them from some kind of accident at a nearby bus stop.

I think we agree on ghosts and time slips. Since writing my Rougham report I have met a witness who, having just passed her driving test in the mid 1980s, took her sister on her first solo drive. On Blackthorpe, where my wife had her odd experience in the same period, they saw a man in Victorian clothing walking a dog about to cross in front of them. Just a few moments later the same man and dog appeared doing the same actions farther up the road.

I got the account of Chris's teacher directly from him. If his doppelganger experience in Bury was a time slip (I have added a subcategory for this kind of case), and his experience at Thetford Priory was a time slip (it is named as such on You Tube), that means he has had 3 time slips!

The Braintree case was reported in the News of the World:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dp55uvgqunal2jy/Man in morgue.JPG?dl=0

Whereabouts in Leeds was the Leeds case?

 

[CuriousIdent]

OK, your interpretation of my typology is correct, and physicality will be a characteristic of all Type 4 cases. But there are a small number of cases where Type 3 is the appropriate category as you can't say that the witness has fully integrated into the environment of the time slip BUT there are some features of interaction

Absolutely. And I think that’s why using a separate field to define the level of interaction is probably the most sensible, at that point. Separate to the typology. Do you feel that:

• Visual – Change in Environmental Appearance and/or attire of persons in the vicinity.
• Visual – Change of Weather or Time of Day observed.
• Social – Acknowledgement of subject’s presence through eye contact or physical gesture.
• Social – Speaking with another individual who vocally acknowledges or responds to subject's vocal comment.
• Physical – Interacting with Objects or Environment.
• Physical – Physically interacting with another person or persons.
• Physical – A change in Temperature experienced.

Would be accurate categories for that? I’ve redefined the social interactions above based upon your comments in the examples below:

I recall an Australian case where the witness drove through a small outback town where a historical pageant seemed to be in progress, and all the people seemed totally unaware of his car driving through their midst -- all except one small boy who couldn't stop staring at it. In another case a witness in a church became aware that the building had become changed and a congregation in old fashioned clothing were there. But they were vague and semi transparent. Nevertheless some of them spotted the witness and reacted to her.

Yes. In both of those cases there is clearly a... connection. A perceived acknowledgement. A social interaction of eye contact, certainly.

I have expanded the first Social statement to include both eye contact and physical gesture. Such as waving or beckoning. Both physical actions could of course be directed at somebody else, but the important detail is that the subject experiencing the slip certainly believes that they are being addressed by these gestures.

Whereas the vocal version of a social interaction would be defined as an individual within the timeslip having responded to or conversed with the subject.

Does that make sense?

So I have had to modify the typology in this and other ways. When I was still planning my catalogue I wrote a short intro that focused on this issue in some detail, and I will try to add a link to that here.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/22xy0234pwhztxm/Time slip catalogue.pdf?dl=0

This and the other problem cases do complicate the system but they are a small minority, so most cases could still be classified as Types 1-4 fairly easily.

I’ll try to take a look at those tonight Carl. I’m on my lunch break at work. I can’t use drop box from here. I can at home.

The two most physical and potentially most evidential cases that I have come upon are probably the Leeds incident where one of the two witnesses walked straight through a person in present time, and a US case where a young man was given a late night lift by an elderly couple; when he met them shortly after (to him) they had visibly aged, and remarked how young he still looked after several years. In the first case that witness has already died and after a short exchange of emails her sister has suddenly become unreachable -- I fear the worst. However, I have a good idea of the identity of the 3rd witness who saw the slip from outside, but so far have failed to be able to make contact. (If anybody in the Leeds area wants a thankless but valuable job tracking her down, please let me know!) In the second case, the witness told me that he had met the couple a second time since posting his experience; the wife thought it was a Godly intervention to save the young man from some danger, but the husband seems to have been in denial or something.

I think that second Account has been mentioned elsewhere on this thread. I find that one fascinating. What was the source for it? Has it been reported elsewhere?

I think we agree on ghosts and time slips. Since writing my Rougham report I have met a witness who, having just passed her driving test in the mid 1980s, took her sister on her first solo drive. On Blackthorpe, where my wife had her odd experience in the same period, they saw a man in Victorian clothing walking a dog about to cross in front of them. Just a few moments later the same man and dog appeared doing the same actions farther up the road.

(Waits for somebody to mention ‘Glitch in the Matrix, surely?’ )

Yes. The repetition of (especially physical) actions is what I would say is probably the strongest potential link between Haunting sightings and Timeslip experiences. The clothing in particular here makes the figure stand out as being far more unlikely to be two separate people.

It’s a relatively low key event to report. It’s not dramatic. It’s not embellished. It’s just something really odd that a person has observed. Those are the kind of accounts I find far less difficult to believe.

If it’s not too personal to ask, what was your Wife’s experience in this locale?

I got the account of Chris's teacher directly from him. If his doppelganger experience in Bury was a time slip (I have added a subcategory for this kind of case), and his experience at Thetford Priory was a time slip (it is named as such on You Tube), that means he has had 3 time slips!

Okay I’ve clearly missed something here. So the encounter on the bus was relating to the teacher who had died. What are the other two odd occurrences here? I don’t recall hearing about those.

 

[CuriousIdent]

Regarding the famous Avignon case, how I would love it to be true, but I remain rather sceptical, hence bumping my post from 18 months ago:

"I note that the Strange But True account of the French hotel incident didn't explore the hoax hypothesis or even mention that it was claimed to have occurred near the town of Avignon (which, phonetically, sounds rather like 'avin you on').

Correct. I most certainly does not contemplate the notion of a Hoax. But then that's was largely Strange but True?'s MO - to present an account and ask the viewer to decide for themselves as to whether they believed it.

As for the furnishings in the hotel, they were not that anachronistic for rural France at the time. The first time I stayed at my then girlfriend's parents' house in a small country village around 1979/80, I was a little surprised to find such high beds, with medieval-looking bolsters instead of pillows and very rustic wooden shutters on the windows (which were glazed though!).

I'd agree with that. Or indeed of any establishment which wanted to present a rustic feel. They are not, of themselves, definitive evidence of a timeslip.

It does strongly suggest a hoax or, at best, an exaggeration/elaboration to me. The two couples obviously did stay in a rustic country inn and, as they had never visited France before, found the very old-fashioned furnishings something of a culture shock. Seeing a couple of rural gendarmes, possibly wearing rain-capes to protect against early morning mist, added to the feelings of strangeness.

I guess as a secondary question I wonder what a typical late 1970s Gendarme uniform looked like. It is far from implausible that a rain cape could have been covering a modern day (for the 1970s) uniform. Though were rain capes (the like of which we probably most associate with Arthur Bostrom in 'Allo 'Allo) still in use back then?

As the travellers hardly spoke any French, it was not surprising that the policeman looked baffled until he heard the name Avignon, at which point he gave them directions they struggled to understand.

Again, far from implausible. It seems likely that both couples only had a rudimentary knowledge of French.

The one key detail (as far as Len was concerned) is that he was certain that the word the officers did not understand was 'Autoroute'. A pretty specific term. And one which it would be very difficult to mispronounce. So I suppose there's that.

As for the bill, why did the guy not keep it as a souvenir, if he was so astonished at the low cost?

True. Although receipts do tend to be very disposable items. If he had it it would be exceptionally useful. But we probably should also consider that certainly while they were staying on-site neither couple considered the experience as too far out of the ordinary. Rustic. But not surreal. Not at the time. It was only when they returned home, and the photos they believed they had taken hadn't appeared on the roll. Up to that point expect that not being able to find the place a second time was more of a 'pain in the arse' than 'spooky'

Is it possible that he misheard 'cent dix-neuf francs Monsieur' for 'dix-neuf' and, being unfamiliar with the currency, maybe even handed over some 50 franc notes, thinking they were the equivalent of fivers?

Possible, yes. Although it does require a simultaneous error of both mishearing and then handing over far more money than you misheard, whilst simultaneously not questioning what change you also received back.

Finally, in the days before sat-navs, it was very easy to get lost in rural France, which has thousands of lookalike villages, tree-lined roads and ruined buildings. Hence, when they thought they had found the same location, it was different, but their imagination (or possibly desire to generate a great story) elaborated the rest."

True enough. It's easy to lose your bearings anywhere rural without directions. Simply 'getting lost' or misremembering steps you'd taken days or weeks earlier is far from uncommon.

 

[Ghost In The Machine]

Also forgot to say, IIRC - and it's been years since I read it so I might be wrong - there was an account in (I think) Robert Graves' 'Goodbye To All That' where he met and had an entire conversation with a fellow WW1 soldier, someone he knew quite well I think it was - only to find out afterwards they'd been dead at the time in question. And apparently this wasn't unusual. I don't think there was anything odd about the man's appearance, and he didn't have any awareness of the meeting being odd in any way, at the time it was happening.

Which reminds me, I'll try and remember to ask husband tonight where the (former?) army building was, where he saw the soldier standing in the doorway. See if anyone else has reported anything at that site.

Carl Grove, you could try asking re. the Leeds case on the Secret Leeds forums..? They have a whole board for supernatural Leeds experiences.

http://www.secretleeds.com/viewforum.php?f=17&sid=25cdd7418d73e7238d67e75b2fc32ca8

 

[Carl Grove]

Whereabouts in Leeds was the Leeds case?

The incident took place in Taheri's Newsagents, 85 Roundhay Road, LS8 5AQ.
Geographicals: 53deg48'40.13"N, 1deg31'29.5"W (not sure how to do degree symbol)

The shop is now HS Hardware.

Mandy, the witness I contacted (not her real name), thought that the shop assistant who apparently saw the girls enter the shop and vanish, may have been Mrs Taheri. I have tried writing c/o HS Hardware, with no response. Mandy replied to an item in the provincial paper that mentioned my search, and it may or may not be that the 3rd witness saw that.

 

[Carl Grove]

Also forgot to say, IIRC - and it's been years since I read it so I might be wrong - there was an account in (I think) Robert Graves' 'Goodbye To All That' where he met and had an entire conversation with a fellow WW1 soldier, someone he knew quite well I think it was - only to find out afterwards they'd been dead at the time in question. And apparently this wasn't unusual. I don't think there was anything odd about the man's appearance, and he didn't have any awareness of the meeting being odd in any way, at the time it was happening.

Which reminds me, I'll try and remember to ask husband tonight where the (former?) army building was, where he saw the soldier standing in the doorway. See if anyone else has reported anything at that site.

Carl Grove, you could try asking re. the Leeds case on the Secret Leeds forums..? They have a whole board for supernatural Leeds experiences.

http://www.secretleeds.com/viewforum.php?f=17&sid=25cdd7418d73e7238d67e75b2fc32ca8

Thanks so much for that info about Robert Graves and about the Leeds site. I have joined the site and posted a new forum named "Leeds Time Slip." Let's hope something comes of this!

 

[Carl Grove]

Absolutely. And I think that’s why using a separate field to define the level of interaction is probably the most sensible, at that point. Separate to the typology. Do you feel that:

• Visual – Change in Environmental Appearance and/or attire of persons in the vicinity.
• Visual – Change of Weather or Time of Day observed.
• Social – Acknowledgement of subject’s presence through eye contact or physical gesture.
• Social – Speaking with another individual who vocally acknowledges or responds to subject's vocal comment.
• Physical – Interacting with Objects or Environment.
• Physical – Physically interacting with another person or persons.
• Physical – A change in Temperature experienced.

Would be accurate categories for that? I’ve redefined the social interactions above based upon your comments in the examples below:





Yes. In both of those cases there is clearly a... connection. A perceived acknowledgement. A social interaction of eye contact, certainly.

I have expanded the first Social statement to include both eye contact and physical gesture. Such as waving or beckoning. Both physical actions could of course be directed at somebody else, but the important detail is that the subject experiencing the slip certainly believes that they are being addressed by these gestures.

Whereas the vocal version of a social interaction would be defined as an individual within the timeslip having responded to or conversed with the subject.

Does that make sense?





I’ll try to take a look at those tonight Carl. I’m on my lunch break at work. I can’t use drop box from here. I can at home.





I think that second Account has been mentioned elsewhere on this thread. I find that one fascinating. What was the source for it? Has it been reported elsewhere?





(Waits for somebody to mention ‘Glitch in the Matrix, surely?’ )

Yes. The repetition of (especially physical) actions is what I would say is probably the strongest potential link between Haunting sightings and Timeslip experiences. The clothing in particular here makes the figure stand out as being far more unlikely to be two separate people.

It’s a relatively low key event to report. It’s not dramatic. It’s not embellished. It’s just something really odd that a person has observed. Those are the kind of accounts I find far less difficult to believe.

If it’s not too personal to ask, what was your Wife’s experience in this locale?





Okay I’ve clearly missed something here. So the encounter on the bus was relating to the teacher who had died. What are the other two odd occurrences here? I don’t recall hearing about those.

Sorry, I missed the last two questions!

I described the incident with my wife in The Rougham Mystery. Briefly, in the 80s she was living in Rougham and riding a scooter into work in Bury St Edmunds. On a road near the motorway, she saw four men pushing a broken down car 100 or so yards ahead. They moved out of sight round a slight bend and she automatically slowed to avoid hitting them, but when she got there (within 4 or 5 secs max) there was no sign of them. There is a bank and they would have had to get it up that and push it another 20 feet or so to get it behind the nearest hedge. Weeks later the same thing happened, same place, with an elderly lady on a bike.

Chris Romer's other two experiences: Also in the Rougham MYstery, I mentioned that as a teenager taking time off in the dinner break with a friend, they saw a group of children from Chris's old school, St James, visiting the cathedral. Chris suddenly recognised his younger self amongst them. His physical reaction to this was extreme, sickness, headaches etc. Later on as a student he and 3 friends saw a figure watching them at Thetford Priory -- thinking it a hoaxer they ran towards it as it walked downstairs, only for figure and stairs to vanish. They were featured on a ghosthunters programme, and the You Tube video is taken from that.

 

[Ghost In The Machine]

The incident took place in Taheri's Newsagents, 85 Roundhay Road, LS8 5AQ.
Geographicals: 53deg48'40.13"N, 1deg31'29.5"W (not sure how to do degree symbol)

The shop is now HS Hardware.

Mandy, the witness I contacted (not her real name), thought that the shop assistant who apparently saw the girls enter the shop and vanish, may have been Mrs Taheri. I have tried writing c/o HS Hardware, with no response. Mandy replied to an item in the provincial paper that mentioned my search, and it may or may not be that the 3rd witness saw that.

Blimey, just checked Get Directions - that's 2 minutes from where my dad grew up (just off Harehills Lane). If only he was still alive, I could ask him about those shops in the past. He would have known as he knew it like the back of his hand (our family had the local dairy and he would have delivered milk round there). All my great uncles are gone as well, as they would have known something about what that shop used to be. I'll be following what you can find, with great interest!

 

[Carl Grove]

It's a small world, for sure! I hope someone on that Leeds site will come up with something.

 

[Carl Grove]

Forgot to say I have located the other Roman time slip:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1031526/pg1

Not as dramatic as the trident case!

 

[GingerTabby]

Also forgot to say, IIRC - and it's been years since I read it so I might be wrong - there was an account in (I think) Robert Graves' 'Goodbye To All That' where he met and had an entire conversation with a fellow WW1 soldier, someone he knew quite well I think it was - only to find out afterwards they'd been dead at the time in question. And apparently this wasn't unusual. I don't think there was anything odd about the man's appearance, and he didn't have any awareness of the meeting being odd in any way, at the time it was happening.

That rings a bell, GITM, although I too read Goodbye To All That some years ago. At the moment I can't put my hand on my copy to check. I also recall Graves providing an unflinching description of the decomposition of the body of a fellow soldier who had been killed in No Man's Land. At least I recall it as being in No Man's Land because it was impossible to retrieve the body. Graves also mentioned that one home he shared with his first wife was haunted. He commented on seeing fleeting reflections of various figures in the mirror, which he took to be ghosts. That was the first time I'd encountered the idea that ghosts can be seen in a mirror.