Are UFOs & Ufology In Decline? If So—Why?

[Paul_Exeter]

If you want a Welsh UAP incident that rivals Roswell in the 21st century, try the Pentyrch incident.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/strange-night-welsh-field-involving-15290890




I should point out that this entire incident was nothing more than a routine military exercise, using different coloured lights for the convenience of the participants. An exercise that involved hundreds of regular Army personnel, several helicopters and planes, but no aliens whatsoever. Yet it continues to be celebrated by a small group of enthusiasts as a CEIII event.

Yes, all too aware of this one. I first caught this story when they posted on YouTube and then a put up a few web pages outlining their experience. It was interesting but rather quickly explained over at Metabunk:

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/the-pentyrch-ufo-encounter.11738/

However, Caz has ignored these findings and doubled-down on her belief that the 'nasty' RAF shot down one if the friendly, 'cute' green UFOs, boo hoo... The whole thing has now been monetised via her book (which is still £15 to buy despite some decidedly mixed reviews) and promoted through podcast appearances.

The 2010 Phear Park, Exmouth case seems to be the most recent CE3 I am aware of, its not a bad one as the witness seems sound:

"During the night of the 12th of February, 2010, lifelong paranormal skeptic Roy Shaw was walking his dog in Devon, England. Wandering through the quiet streets of his neighborhood, he began to approach his local Lawn Bowling club, when he was startled by an odd object hovering high up in the sky. Hazy and distant at first, it began to descend slowly and move nearer in his direction. Circular in shape, it suspended itself above the bowling club and Shaw entered the grounds to get a better look at the object. He watched in amazement as it zigzagged around, before landing on the far side of the green."

http://www.beamsinvestigations.org/The Phear Park Bowling Green Apparition, Exmouth, Devon, 2010.htm

However as the object displayed flashing blue and red lights it has been suggested that he mistook police and/or emergency vehicles in the dark, but this has not been proven definitively.

 

[Paul_Exeter]

Well this cheered me up: the guys over at the excellent 'Mysterious Universe' podcast argue that UFO close encounters are still happening in the 2020s but that witnesses are more reluctant to come forward in this social media, online age and illustrate this point with some intriguing new encounters from Australia:

"A strange late-night encounter with a glowing object in the suburbs of Queensland piques our interest in the resurgence of UFOs across the Sunshine State. We take a look at reports of flying lights and their association with kangaroo and other mutilations before delving into other physical trace evidence cases of flying saucers."

https://mysteriousuniverse.org/2023/08/30.04-MU-Podcast-Saucers-Lies-and-Videotape/

 

[CharmerKamelion]

 

[BS3]

Yes, all too aware of this one. I first caught this story when they posted on YouTube and then a put up a few web pages outlining their experience. It was interesting but rather quickly explained over at Metabunk:

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/the-pentyrch-ufo-encounter.11738/

However, Caz has ignored these findings and doubled-down on her belief that the 'nasty' RAF shot down one if the friendly, 'cute' green UFOs, boo hoo... The whole thing has now been monetised via her book (which is still £15 to buy despite some decidedly mixed reviews) and promoted through podcast appearances.

The 2010 Phear Park, Exmouth case seems to be the most recent CE3 I am aware of, its not a bad one as the witness seems sound:

"During the night of the 12th of February, 2010, lifelong paranormal skeptic Roy Shaw was walking his dog in Devon, England. Wandering through the quiet streets of his neighborhood, he began to approach his local Lawn Bowling club, when he was startled by an odd object hovering high up in the sky. Hazy and distant at first, it began to descend slowly and move nearer in his direction. Circular in shape, it suspended itself above the bowling club and Shaw entered the grounds to get a better look at the object. He watched in amazement as it zigzagged around, before landing on the far side of the green."

http://www.beamsinvestigations.org/The Phear Park Bowling Green Apparition, Exmouth, Devon, 2010.htm

However as the object displayed flashing blue and red lights it has been suggested that he mistook police and/or emergency vehicles in the dark, but this has not been proven definitively.

The Phear Park one is a nice case, with that slightly dreamlike quality many CE3Ks seem to have. Pretty sure I remember hearing about it back in 2010, did anyone carry out an in-depth analysis?

 

[BS3]

https://www.exmouthjournal.co.uk/news/20347422.ufo-seen-phear-park-exmouth/

Incidentally here we have what I guess is the original report. I find it interesting that the Journal calls Shaw "the latest resident to report seeing strange coloured lights", as if there were some other reports previously.

 

[Paul_Exeter]

https://www.exmouthjournal.co.uk/news/20347422.ufo-seen-phear-park-exmouth/

Incidentally here we have what I guess is the original report. I find it interesting that the Journal calls Shaw "the latest resident to report seeing strange coloured lights", as if there were some other reports previously.

The CFZs Jon Downes and Nigel Wright (an Exmouth-based Ufologist) investigated a series of UFO and Fortean activity reports in and around Exmouth back in the 1990s:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/RISING-JONATHAN-DOWNES-25-Sep-2005-Paperback/dp/B013RO6VJ4/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1QBO04P5X89T4&keywords=rising+of+the+moon+downes&qid=1691567498&sprefix=rising+of+the+moon+downes,aps,73&sr=8-1

Sadly out of print now but I did have a copy a decade ago, however the events are discussed in the following YouTube footage, here is a proper dose of late-90s Ufology for you:

(Jon has lost a little weight since then...!)

It has always been an area that has attracted reports of paranormal activity from lights in the sky to ABCs and with some odd goings-on on up at Woodbury Common, a large nature reserve but also a training area for the Royal Marines who are based nearby. Also across the estuary you have the Haldon Hills with the old pet cemetery and talk of a mystery beast feasting on the carcasses of recently buried pets plus other goings on including a haunted chapel in the middle of nowhere.

Link to the CFZ of which forum member @lordmongrove is Zoological Director: https://cfz.org.uk. Jon soon gave up on UFOs to focus on cryptozoology but Nigel Wright is still around and investigated the Phear Park case

 

[charliebrown]

Just a “ way out “ idea.

Do you think government intelligence or even non humans E.T.s are keeping track of our forum or forums like this to see what the average person is thinking ?

Are we being monitored or watched ?

 

[CharmerKamelion]

Just a “ way out “ idea.

Do you think government intelligence or even non humans E.T.s are keeping track of our forum or forums like this to see what the average person is thinking ?

Are we being monitored or watched ?

Could be, charliebrown. Monitoring us on here to see if we are going to be able to 'handle the truth'? I bet most of us on here would be able to. I don't know or even mind what that truth is, but surely it will always be better to know the truth than to be kept in the dark by people/organisations who have something to gain by keeping it that way.

But - btw - 'average' ?? How dare you! I'll have you know, I aspire to be average.

 

[Mythopoeika]

Just a “ way out “ idea.

Do you think government intelligence or even non humans E.T.s are keeping track of our forum or forums like this to see what the average person is thinking ?

Are we being monitored or watched ?

Yes.

 

[Paul_Exeter]

Just a “ way out “ idea.

Do you think government intelligence or even non humans E.T.s are keeping track of our forum or forums like this to see what the average person is thinking ?

Are we being monitored or watched ?

Sadly there are probably watching daytime tv and have given up on us as a lost cause...

 

[BS3]

Just a “ way out “ idea.

Do you think government intelligence or even non humans E.T.s are keeping track of our forum or forums like this to see what the average person is thinking ?

Are we being monitored or watched ?

Well, I know that the British government did monitor some UFO groups back in the 1950s, but this was more down to the fact that some of them were promoting messages of international brotherhood, antiwar sentiments, etc, and were seen as potentially politically subversive.

What you'll probably find is that any clandestine government involvement with these subjects has far more to do with earthly political power than anything else. Given the "mistrust your government" narrative around a lot of the subject then it could no doubt be quite useful to foreign powers looking to cause mischief.

 

[BS3]

What we need is something as different to abducteeism as abducteeism was to contacteeism. A UFOlogical tabula rasa for us to project the not-necessarily pleasant contents of our post-millennial psyches onto. I'm sure it'll turn up soon (it could well be happening now without us noticing), but for now, UFOlogy's not dead, it's just sleeping.

I'm amused to see how prescient this poster from 20 (20!) years ago was at the start of this thread.

Maybe you couldn't exactly have predicted the current situation of "UAPs", military "whistleblowers", Bigelow, a resurgent Vallee et al but the signs were, perhaps, there in our psyches as they put it.

I suppose 'abducteeism' hasn't gone away yet, though it has in many respects got even weirder.

 

[charliebrown]

I don’t know but I am guessing that the age group who post here is over 50 years old.

What does the younger people hear today is that the Pentagon says no aliens and the AARO says no aliens.

And tomorrow a much waited NASA UFO report will say no aliens.

So younger people are into Harry Potter type stuff of magic and wizards.

Younger people are into Marvel movies and superheroes.

Us older people have grown up with WW II, the Cold War, and government secrets like UFOs.

UFOs is old people stuff.

 

[Robbrent]

It goes in fits and starts, if like me you believe that much (but perhaps not all) is something that has been with mankind since we crawled out of caves, it craves attention but not too much attention that many people don't actually catch on to what it's all about, it changes the way it appears to suit the times and also to get attention, I have no doubt there will be another huge worldwide flap that will lead to more wild goose chases with people not realising they are chasing shadows

 

[charliebrown]

The last time everyone was talking about UFOs was in 1997 with the huge display of the Phoenix Lights.

We just need a UFO to land at a shopping mall in front of hundreds of people.

 

[AnonyJ]

...The 2010 Phear Park, Exmouth case seems to be the most recent CE3 I am aware of, its not a bad one as the witness seems sound:

"During the night of the 12th of February, 2010, lifelong paranormal skeptic Roy Shaw was walking his dog in Devon, England. Wandering through the quiet streets of his neighborhood, he began to approach his local Lawn Bowling club, when he was startled by an odd object hovering high up in the sky. Hazy and distant at first, it began to descend slowly and move nearer in his direction. Circular in shape, it suspended itself above the bowling club and Shaw entered the grounds to get a better look at the object. He watched in amazement as it zigzagged around, before landing on the far side of the green."

http://www.beamsinvestigations.org/The Phear Park Bowling Green Apparition, Exmouth, Devon, 2010.htm

However as the object displayed flashing blue and red lights it has been suggested that he mistook police and/or emergency vehicles in the dark, but this has not been proven definitively.

Without being dismissive, as I have not heard or read of that event before, on first reading it does sound like a drone flying at night. The flashing lights are a bit of a clue for me. In a 'haze' an object with lights could appear larger and circular?

With reference to the thread theme of UFOlogy; in the context of the 21st century, it strikes me that the 'old' skills of books, original research, cataloguing, filing and reference in the style of any other professional research field may not appeal to many younger people who weren't exposed to it pre-2000ish. It might not even occur to them.

Many under-35s who are very interested in UFOs might just be contented with online message boards, UAP videos and photos online and discussion online. I would guess this transposes to any kind of self-led interest in any Fortean subject and therefore seems to leave the field open to those who monetise and sensationalise the subject at hand (I am thinking specifically of ghosts, poltergeists, conspiracies but this also applies to UA/SPs). It'd be interesting to find out!

 

[BS3]

With reference to the thread theme of UFOlogy; in the context of the 21st century, it strikes me that the 'old' skills of books, original research, cataloguing, filing and reference in the style of any other professional research field may not appeal to many younger people who weren't exposed to it pre-2000ish. It might not even occur to them.

The subject, as well as the approach, has transformed hugely in any case. Even as late as the 1970s it was still under the influence of 1950s contactee-era assumptions regarding nuts and bolts 'craft' (the contactees envisaged them coming from places like Venus or Mars, since we didn't have much data on those places at the time). Since then ufology has had to adjust its horizons a bit.

I suspect the current paradigm, which mixes elements of apparent scientific disinterest (eg terminology like "UAP") with frankly bonkers paranoia not far off Gordon Creighton levels, doesn't so much allow for the subject to be unravelled by 'science' as by religious-type 'revelation' (or 'disclosure' as believers in government conspiracy recast it). In some ways that might actually be a better way of looking at it - with the important distinction that the 'phenomenon' is mostly within human consciousness rather than outside it.

 

[Paul_Exeter]

I often ponder this question, arguably because I was a child in the 1970s when it seemed Ufology was on the cusp of discovering 'the truth' and proving we were being visited by extraterrestrials (or at least it did to this child). Back then every region of the UK had an active UFO group that adopted an acronym similar to that of the national BUFORA organisation (eg. NUFORG, SUFORG, CUFORG). Cases were followed-up and the better researchers such as Jenny Randles meticulously wrote up their findings in journals without exaggeration, paranoia or unwarranted claims (the same journals we now pore over today for clues to past cases). Many cases are decidedly un-UFO in nature and often without a flying craft in sight (for example, 'All Colours Sam') but still got catalogued nonetheless.

But these UFO researchers got older and the UFO enigma remained just that - an enigma - despite some decent cases in the 1980s. Then along came the 1990s with the fledgling internet, the ubiquitous gray aliens and their adoption by the counterculture movement and the curse of the abductees - frankly it all became a bit silly. Ageing Ufologists and the smattering of younger ones were increasingly to be found digging out old case reports as the end of the Cold War also signalled the end of those wonderful CE3 events, such as the 1970s West Wales humanoids. The sad truth is that we have barely had a decent CE3 case here in the UK this Century, the regional UFO groups have all but vanished and BUFORA no longer actively researches new reports. Some still try to make a living from Ufology, such as Nick Pope, but they are all looking back at old cases and not new ones. Effectively, and it pains me to say this, we have witnessed the demise of Ufology here in the UK.

However, the paranormal has not gone away and in place of UFOs we now have close encounters with big black puma-like cats, the British Bigfoot, dogmen, werewolves and such like as well as ghosts and poltergeists. Here there is very much a 'researcher effect' evident, that is when an author/researcher such as Nick Redfern (Cannock Chase) and Paul Sinclair (Truth Proof - Yorkshire) get active in a community people feel they can trust them and come forward with all manner of Fortean encounters from the intriguing to the downright bizarre. There are also some UFO-type reports amongst these, but of a more ambiguous nature than the 1970s 'nuts-and-bolts' UFOs.

So what can we learn from all this? In my opinion there is no shortage of Forteana out there but the manner in which witnesses share their encounters has changed as the internet has changed the way we communicate and socialise. For example, we no longer have the pub culture that existed back in the 1970s to 1990s and the exchanges of information that took place over a few pints. I would wager that a fair few of the better UFO reports from the 20th Century only became widely known because of a chance remark in a pub overhead by/made to a local journalist or UFO group member. Also, today it has never been easier to invade people's privacy and find out personal details by simply Googling their name and location and I can't help but feel this has made witnesses more reluctant than ever to come forwards. The FT and these forums have proven a great conduit for witnesses to share their experiences but what we really need are more researchers like Redfern and Sinclair getting out there and chasing up new leads...

 

[BS3]

I often ponder this question, arguably because I was a child in the 1970s when it seemed Ufology was on the cusp of discovering 'the truth' and proving we were being visited by extraterrestrials (or at least it did to this child). Back then every region of the UK had an active UFO group that adopted an acronym similar to that of the national BUFORA organisation (eg. NUFORG, SUFORG, CUFORG). Cases were followed-up and the better researchers such as Jenny Randles meticulously wrote up their findings in journals without exaggeration, paranoia or unwarranted claims (the same journals we now pore over today for clues to past cases). Many cases are decidedly un-UFO in nature and often without a flying craft in sight (for example, 'All Colours Sam') but still got catalogued nonetheless.

I do find myself wondering if people do still have experiences of the type of the Rainford Humanoid from time to time, but simply no longer report it through the channels we were familiar with in the late 20th century, partly because many of those channels no longer really exist.

Or maybe they have similar experiences but no longer perceive them as 'spacemen', prompted by a background of saucer stories and Cold War paranoia. Having said that the rapidity with which people still turn lights in the sky into spaceships perhaps suggests it's not as simple as that. One important thing might be that most people's understanding of what a UFO occupant might look like has certainly changed.

 

[Paul_Exeter]

I do find myself wondering if people do still have experiences of the type of the Rainford Humanoid from time to time, but simply no longer report it through the channels we were familiar with in the late 20th century, partly because many of those channels no longer really exist.

Or maybe they have similar experiences but no longer perceive them as 'spacemen', prompted by a background of saucer stories and Cold War paranoia. Having said that the rapidity with which people still turn lights in the sky into spaceships perhaps suggests it's not as simple as that. One important thing might be that most people's understanding of what a UFO occupant might look like has certainly changed.

Rainford wasn't unique in featuring a humanoid UFO occupant without a UFO as perhaps fifty-percent of the Welsh humanoid cases as lacked a UFO. So are these now being reported as ghosts or have 'they' evolved into some other form, just as the phantom airship pilots were 'bearded men'.

 

[BS3]

Rainford wasn't unique in featuring a humanoid UFO occupant without a UFO as perhaps fifty-percent of the Welsh humanoid cases as lacked a UFO. So are these now being reported as ghosts or have 'they' evolved into some other form, just as the phantom airship pilots were 'bearded men'.

It's difficult to say and it may even be that some of these things are not being reported at all because they are not obviously perceived as figures.

As an example here's the August 1977 case from near Carmarthen where a lorry driver and his mate saw two strange figures alongside the A48;

https://www.sufon.co.uk/items/27-august-1977-nantycaws-hill,-carmarthen

The two investigators (Randall Jones-Pugh and Ted Holliday, both well-known figures in the period) seem to strongly lead the witnesses - pretty consistent with Pugh and Holliday's other work - and the description of the entities is so odd you have to wonder if they would even be reported as figures, were it not for the existence of ufologists eager to receive reports and interpret them within an ETH framework.

(Incidentally most of these details are taken from Holliday's article for FSR which, noting a fatal car accident at the spot a few months later, ran with the hilariously over the top title Did Humanoids Kill These Men? It concluded that ufonauts really needed to be more careful appearing alongside roads in case they distracted people).

 

[CharmerKamelion]

It's difficult to say and it may even be that some of these things are not being reported at all because they are not obviously perceived as figures.

As an example here's the August 1977 case from near Carmarthen where a lorry driver and his mate saw two strange figures alongside the A48;

https://www.sufon.co.uk/items/27-august-1977-nantycaws-hill,-carmarthen

The two investigators (Randall Jones-Pugh and Ted Holliday, both well-known figures in the period) seem to strongly lead the witnesses - pretty consistent with Pugh and Holliday's other work - and the description of the entities is so odd you have to wonder if they would even be reported as figures, were it not for the existence of ufologists eager to receive reports and interpret them within an ETH framework.

(Incidentally most of these details are taken from Holliday's article for FSR which, noting a fatal car accident at the spot a few months later, ran with the hilariously over the top title Did Humanoids Kill These Men? It concluded that ufonauts really needed to be more careful appearing alongside roads in case they distracted people).

That is a really interesting case. Is it just me, or is it difficult to visualise the beings that the witness describes? It's one of those cases where you need to see a sketch of the figures to get an idea of what they were like.

It seems that the figures weren't seen to move, so that does make you wonder if whatever the things were they could possibly have been inanimate objects who just happened to suggest the shape of weird humanoid figures, and possibly the strange feelings felt by the witnesses were just their response to seeing something their minds couldn't rationalise.

 

[BS3]

That is a really interesting case. Is it just me, or is it difficult to visualise the beings that the witness describes? It's one of those cases where you need to see a sketch of the figures to get an idea of what they were like.

It seems that the figures weren't seen to move, so that does make you wonder if whatever the things were they could possibly have been inanimate objects who just happened to suggest the shape of weird humanoid figures, and possibly the strange feelings felt by the witnesses were just their response to seeing something their minds couldn't rationalise.

Absolutely, and this is why I wonder if the decline in high profile, pro ETH researchers like Pugh, and in the public understanding of UFOs as 'saucers' crewed by large robot-type things, might be one reason we don't seem to get many of these reports any more. Maybe people are still seeing odd stuff but it's just being interpreted differently.

 

[BS3]

The thing is that ufology isn't exactly made up of 'sightings' - those are the unique and intensely personal experiences that witnesses have - but of 'sighting reports', which are a combination of the biases of the witnesses and biases of the investigator. I think these have both changed substantially in the past 30 years and this is why ufology has changed, if not "declined".

Pugh was a type we rarely seem to get now: a well-qualified professional (he was a vet) who'd had a UFO sighting himself and was passionately pro-ETH. He was in fairness an engaging writer although a terrible investigator, always leading the witness by describing an object as a "craft" for example. Like several of these figures he left the field and burned all his notes after a disturbing experience which convinced him the phenomenon was demonic, although given the views of some of his fellow FSR contributors at the time it's not surprising he ended up thinking this way.

 

[Paul_Exeter]

That is a really interesting case. Is it just me, or is it difficult to visualise the beings that the witness describes? It's one of those cases where you need to see a sketch of the figures to get an idea of what they were like.

It seems that the figures weren't seen to move, so that does make you wonder if whatever the things were they could possibly have been inanimate objects who just happened to suggest the shape of weird humanoid figures, and possibly the strange feelings felt by the witnesses were just their response to seeing something their minds couldn't rationalise.

It is difficult to visualise someone seven foot tall and seven foot wide and without legs, isn't that essentially a square with a 'head' on top, or did they mean the shoulders were seven foot wide but then tapered to the chest? Even if that was the case, I still feel this was a case of pareidolia if it wasn't for the fear they experienced and that they had some sort of face.

So if we hadn't had two Ufologists on the scene but the witnesses instead wrote to FT's IHTM with a description of what they had experienced, what conclusions would we FTers have drawn? Yellows and reds are the colours of road maintenance so did they mistake the reflection from some sort of maintenance equipment/vehicles or are we talking road ghosts or a time-slip from the future...?

I feel the description of the 'helmets' being like guardsmen's busbies is a clue here, can't recall any other humanoid reports with this detail.

 

[Paul_Exeter]

Do we have a date for when the new A48 dual carriageway was opened on that specific section around Nantycaws? This photo shows the original A48 was the main road to the north of the newer one:

https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2563084

Although it was 02.30-ish in there morning I am still surprised there weren't any other reports that morning given this is a the major artery from the ports and refineries of West Wales to Cardiff and England and which operate around the clock. They said the humanoids were on the right hand side. which either puts them in the central reservation between the two lanes of traffic or over on the verge of the old main road. If the dual carriageway was being constructed at this time then another possibility is construction traffic parked up. A further possibility is a military vehicle as some can have unusual reflective markings on a camouflaged/dark green background, such as the truck in this image:

https://www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/news/20253533.campaigners-anger-nuclear-weapons-convoy-m6/

 

[BS3]

I have a feeling it was the original road alignment at that point and that it was a few years before the dual carriageway came along. If nothing else the awful accident at that spot in November of that year (that Holliday tried to blame on the 'humanoids') would show the road was in serious need of an upgrade.

I agree that there's something about these very static 'humanoids' that make me think of some inanimate object or vehicle (despite Pugh and his questions such as "You saw no glow – no sign of a landed craft?”)

 

[BS3]

Nantycaws bypass under construction in 1989, according to a source I just found.

 

[BS3]

Might be worth starting a separate thread on this one (no doubt EnolaGaia would have advised it) but in the interim I can't help thinking there's some telling detail which might suggest a solution;

Also they had some sort of aerial coming out of them.”

“How long were these aerials?”

“About to the top of the head. They glittered in the lights. They were a chrome-silvery colour.”

The supposed aerials seemed to emerge out of the left side of the figures’ chests and reached to about the top of their high heads. However, John Dwyer said later that he also glimpsed a smaller aerial coming from the side of one of the beings’ heads

These aerials seem quite a distinctive feature.

This bit was weird as well;

No – and that’s another queer part. The faces were there, but we seemed to see through them like. There seemed to be nothing. You couldn’t make them out

 

[Paul_Exeter]

Might be worth starting a separate thread on this one (no doubt EnolaGaia would have advised it) but in the interim I can't help thinking there's some telling detail which might suggest a solution;



These aerials seem quite a distinctive feature.

This bit was weird as well;

Back in 1978 chrome ariels were of course state-of-the-art technology for cars, radios etc. In 2023 they are an anachronism and you and I can ring Australia from a handheld device without any ariel whatsoever. An ariel coming out the side of a helmet is pure Dr Who territory So, like many other UFO CE2 and CE3 reports from that area the descriptions of the technology (especially UFO control panels) haven't aged well.

Then you have the fact these humanoids didn't move when illuminated by the HGV and I cannot shake the feeling that they might have misidentified barriers or vehicles of some sort. Those busbie helmets remind me of the radar domes you get on some military vehicles, not sure about 1978 though.

What makes this a worthy case for me is that I do feel they genuinely saw something they couldn't explain and that scared them, I just feel a hoax would have been a lot more like the humanoids reported elsewhere and not with these bizarre, broad dimensions.