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OOPArts: Out Of Place Artefacts & Archaeological Erratics

Shadowsot said:
Not on the scale, there are a few sites from that rough time period in the same area, and a couple of villages that predate it and have similar but smaller t pillars like are found at Göbekli.
It's an amazing site, only a small percent has been excavated yet.
And so far theres been no evidence the site was inhabited.
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Hi Shadowshot.
 
Ermintrude said:
Here's the thing: although I can't be sure, I think I've not seen this simple suggestion made by anyone else. Ever.

There is no doubt that when the Europeans traded, as well as glass beads and dirty blankets, they will have swapped/sold/substituted the oldest, rustiest and bluntest of weapons.

Why wouldn't that include medieval and ancient coins & weaponry, dragged to the Americas? I'd apppreciate one reference to this possibility, made by a formal archaeologist/historian.


Yes: proper stratum chrono-contextualisation. It's a relatively/very recent technique, that has a number of flaws. My incomplete understanding of it is that it is better-suited to differentiating many millennea, not just a couple. And that ground conditions need to be exactly perfect for it to be viable.

This is not intended to be an absolute hypothesis, merely a valid vector of historical cross-contamination.
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Why though? You got finite space on a very leaky ship, you are not going to risk YOUR expedition on trading shit goods to an unknown market? Your life, your families life and honor is on the line. I've always struggled with the idea of a fleet of Del Boys conning the locals on the first few expeditions.


Maybe later when things became more established. Not on the first voyages though.
 
There is also the possibility that American Natives, (what used to be called Indians*) made it to the Old World.

http://www.strangehistory.net/2010/06/06/american-indians-in-roman-europe/

Why not? If Europeans could get lost, why not the American Natives?

* I must confess that this is how I still think of them. Admittedly, not PC, but I am an old man and old habits die hard. Oklahoma, where I live, has one of the highest numbers of Indian Nations in the USA, and it is not uncommon to see Choctaw, Cherokee, and other license plates on vehicles. You nice folks in the UK call them number plates, I believe.
 
Deschain,

..let alone a glorified clock...

It's rather more than that I would suggest.

There again, there were no clocks as we know them around at that time either.

INT21
 
Shadowsot said:
And so far theres been no evidence the site was inhabited
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By this, do you mean that archaeologists have failed to find any detrirus from food / bonfires / corpses? And therefore interpret it as having been solely a ceremonial/sacred place, being seen as bereft of domestic evidence?

I wonder to what extent this could be, because it is such an ancient site? Ephemeral non-fossilised by-products and biological markers will, of course, not stay around like stone.

Equally: if the site is still to be completely researched, what's to say there isn't a smoke-lodge/longhouse/tented clearing just about to be discovered? The owners may have inhabited it neatly&reverently....after all that ancient effort, why would they do otherwise?
 
Ermintrude said:
By this, do you mean that archaeologists have failed to find any detrirus from food / bonfires / corpses? And therefore interpret it as having been solely a ceremonial/sacred place, being seen as bereft of domestic evidence?

I wonder to what extent this could be, because it is such an ancient site? Ephemeral non-fossilised by-products and biological markers will, of course, not stay around like stone.

Equally: if the site is still to be completely researched, what's to say there isn't a smoke-lodge/longhouse/tented clearing just about to be discovered? The owners may have inhabited it neatly&reverently....after all that ancient effort, why would they do otherwise?
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Actually, you'd be amazed how long that stuff sticks around.
Accidentally preserved sites predating Gobleki give evidence of it, and of course such detritus is present in many sites that post date it.
It would require scrupulus cleaning that isn't shown anywhere else. Even in other holy places.
You also have a problem in that there were no domesticated crops or animals yet, in fact their arrival coincides with the end of the sites use.
There is some evidence, as I recall, of some purposeful seed scattering of food plants. But this wouldn't have made for reliable yoelds to supoort large groups of people.
Also as I recall there is evidence of a small living site, which was theorized to be used for caretakers of the site when the tribes utilizing it had left for the season.
Both of these are from memory, though. It's hard to dig up the information online, and unfortunately my ex decided to get rid of some of my journals before she went back to Kentucky.
There are other sites of habitation that predate or were contemporaries of the site and were in the area and one I know had similar pillars as we find at Gobekli, though they were smaller in size.
These were semi-permanent, though. As the seasons changed and animals moved and the plants died back the people living there would move to follow until the seasons changed again.
There just wasn't enough reaources at the time to make a permanent place to live feasible.
So why make the site?
Stonehenge would be another example where initially no one actually lived there, but it was used for ceremonies around the seasons.
There is evidence there of a lodge that housed people as it was built, but the main site itself wasn't a city or major living area, though in later times it got used in different functions.
And it's important to note that Stonehenge was partially religious and ritual, and partially practical for tracking the seasons.

Now it might be that they find a living quarters on the site, which opens more questions about food and resources. Which would be great.
But we run into trouble. Every culture and civilization makes trash. Broken tools, broken weapons, food waste. We do find evidence of tool work there, pieces from stone broken off and tools left.
Moxed into the backfill is bits of bones and charcoal.
Theres no evidence of middens, the other tells seem to contain structures, yes, but trash disposal of large groups of people as well as getting them food and clean water and sanitation is a large concern.
If we can find a way they would have had access to large amounts of food and water, and their trash pits, then we have evidence of long term inhabitation.
As it stands, we have much less than we do at those other sites I mentioned earlier.

One of the proposed suggestions for the use of the site is simklar to Zoroastrian traditions of sky burials, where the bodies are left in the open for animals to pick clean.
That may be a solution, it would fit that it would be a site of ceremonial and practical purpose, but we don't have any remains yet.
And it may be if we want to find them we'd have to do damage to the site, which isn't likely.
Even exposed to the elements, over time there'd be a build up of remains at the site that would leave traces. And this site wasn't left exposed.
I thought I'd add a couple of links to other sites:
Gürcütep
Predates Gobekli, less investigated though due to being mostly built over.

Nevalı Çori
Postdates Gobekli, but shared some similarities while also have evidence of living spaces.
Then there are other ones that are still being examined, like Sefere Tepe
The site's been under work now for more than twenty years, but that's really not much time.
Hopefully we'll see more peaceful times which will open it up more for investigation.
The big thing really is interest. Gobekli os billed as the first temple and gets the press for being unique and big. It's a very important site, a very major one. There is no way to overstate it's importance.
But it's the other smaller sites that have been found (some of which have been flooded by man made dams or built over in more recent times, or my personal fear is absolute destruction) that will give us some context to put the site into.
 
Chinese history is filled with lost technologies. I'm not as familiar with it as Egyptian or Moddle East history, but they had at various points automata, natural gas lighting, rockets, many interesting and "advanced" technologies that got lost or were forgotten.
In large part, if I remember right, because the dynastic structure had long periods of stability followed by destruction as the old rulers put down by the new boss.
 
Stories of lost technology at least.
 
To me one of the most curious stories is the map of China buried in the tomb of the First Emperor, complete with rivers of mercury. Traces of mercury have been discovered in boreholes driven into the vast tomb, which cannot currently be opened.

This article surveys the chemical aspects of this story, with the answer a resounding 'maybe'.
https://www.chemistryworld.com/feature/flowing-rivers-of-mercury/8122.article
 
"or the undecipherable Vinca script"


Just as a slight aside, I was reading an article about entoptic images and it struck me that the grid-lines, comb-like structures, zig-zags, spirals, dots etc. bore more than a passing resemblance to common characters on the Vinca script and possibly to even earlier cave art.

Could these early artists / artisans have recreated after-images they saw when in a drugged or trance state or simply after rubbing their eyes?

PSX_20180604_100112.jpg
 
INT21 said:
Some here may find this interesting.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jk_rCm1rAeg

It is one many approach to the subject. I do see some flaws in his reasoning, but it will be interesting to follow the progress.

INT21
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I loved it INT. I used to see the old saddlers using something very similar to that vise tree when I was kid. Lovely. Thank you.
 
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blessmycottonsocks said:
Some of the pictograms from Göbekli Tepe - comb or fork-shapes, zig-zags and dots, look similar to the Vinca script too, but predate it by some 4,000 years.


View attachment 10167
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In some of the Old Peoples paintings here in Australia, that pictogram is pretty straightforward, but it would depend on its context, wouldn't it...

What I simplistically read is, it saying that 'along a river, to a womans spot, walk.
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
Some of the pictograms from Göbekli Tepe - comb or fork-shapes, zig-zags and dots
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Why is there such skilful & accurate enscribing of curved lines on these stones? I refer to my standard urban understanding of straight-sided runes-on-stones (and runestines).

Having never personally-petrographed beyond a graduation level of slate scratchings, I need to be educated on this point. And surely it can't be soft South American soapstone versus strong Scandinavian slabs...otherwise why would the Gobleki ones still be with us?
 
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Ermintruder said:
Why is there such skilful & accurate enscribing of curved lines on these stones? I refer to my standard urban understanding of straight-sided runes-on-stones (and runestines).

Having never personally-petrographed beyond a graduation point of slate scratchings, I need to be educated on this point. And surely it can't be soft South American soapstone versus strong Scandinavian slabs...otherwise why would the Gobleki ones still be with us?
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Gõbekli Tepe's remarkable state of preservation is due to the site not just having been abandoned, but having been carefully and deliberately buried under tons of sand and sandstone fragments.
Still only 5% excavated, one can but guess at what other wonders are yet to be discovered.
Sadly, its proximity to the Syrian border means it's in danger of being swept up in the war. The thought of Turkish, Kurdish, Iranian and Islamic State forces trashing the place is unbearable.
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
Gõbekli Tepe's remarkable state of preservation is due to the site not just having been abandoned, but having been carefully and deliberately buried under tons of sand and sandstone fragments.
Still only 5% excavated, one can but guess at what other wonders are yet to be discovered.
Sadly, its proximity to the Syrian border means it's in danger of being swept up in the war. The thought of Turkish, Kurdish, Iranian and Islamic State forces trashing the place is unbearable.
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Maybe it needs to be re-buried?
 
Mythopoeika said:
Maybe it needs to be re-buried?
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That"s assuming that future generations of humankind would be more peaceful and enlightened.
As the 20th century was by far the bloodiest in humankind's history and the start of the 21st isn't looking that much better, I'm not sure we can be optimistic about that.
 
We aren't very far into the 21st century yet, but it is probably the most peaceful in the history of mankind so far.
Wars-after-1946-State-Based-Battle-Death-Rate-By-Type.png
 
Good thing the graph doesn't include WW2. Then the 21st century portion would likely be indiscernible.

Concerning the Gõbekli Tepe site. Turkey has the best military in the Mideast (next to Israel). Despite problems in nearby Syria, Iraq and Iran, Turkeys repressive government is also the most stable government in the Mideast, next to Isreal. I believe by and far the site is safe.
 
As a Pinterest member, I get those 'Pins you may be interested in" emails. They're mostly bunkum, featuring unfeasibly large skeletons or poorly-Photoshopped cryptids.

Today's though, featured pics of some strange little figurines from the Mexican Remojadas culture (c. 100 BC to 800 AD.) which could possibly be described as OOPARTS.
A lizardman, or human wearing a lizard-like outfit, riding on an oval vehicle (or flattened turtle) whilst looking through binoculars.

PSX_20180723_085311.jpg

And a guy in some sort of suit with a stylised crocodile helmet.

PSX_20180723_085355.jpg

I don't want to come over all Erich Von Dänikeny, but would be interested in forumists' views on these.
 
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blessmycottonsocks said:
A lizardman, or human wearing a lizard-like outfit, riding on an oval vehicle (or flattened turtle) whilst looking through binoculars.

10887-ae6cfc3e4a034303d262ae74343aa233.jpg


I don't want to come over all Erich Von Dänikeny, but would be interested in forumists' views on these.
Click to expand...

SPEEDER%20BIKE%20MAIN.jpg


"Quetzalcoatl, I had this weird dream last night. I was in a dark room, and pictures were moving on the wall. Giz that lump of clay and I'll model you what I remember..."

maximus otter
 
Clear evidence that David Icke's correct with his reptilian theories. What more do you want us to say.

(or just something to do with characters in their culture's mythology based on the creatures in the environment around them. Nah that would be boring)
 
Eponastill said:
Clear evidence that David Icke's correct with his reptilian theories. What more do you want us to say.

(or just something to do with characters in their culture's mythology based on the creatures in the environment around them. Nah that would be boring)
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The pilot figure couldn't be a lizard or crocodile anyway because they only have monocular vision.
 
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