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Owzabout That Then? The Jimmy Savile Revelations & Aftermath

My partner’s watching an episode per evening and I’m catching bits and he seems more appalled than I am, perhaps because he loved Jim’s Fix It when he was young. Coogan is eerily and disturbingly good in the role.

There was a part which is probably fantasy as Saville seemed very close-mouthed or would obfuscate. It showed him in the confessional talking about a ‘friend’ who was clearly himself and that he forced himself on young girls, but also did so much good in the world. It was as if he thought by raising all this money for good causes he was ‘paying’ for his appetites which seems completely macabre, but I wonder if there was any truth in it. I can’t even imagine him being really religious, only paying lip-service but that kind of mind is so alien.

When asked about his charity work he talked about a "ledger" where the "good" would be made to "counterbalance" the "bad" when he was before St Peter or God. He seemed to think like this.
 
Personally, I think his charity work was two-fold. On one hand, it made him valuable to powerful people. On the other, he felt that it'd be any 'official' or legal authority who'd take his charity work 'into account'.
If he'd been a true believer in God then he'd know God would see past the pretended 'goodness;.
 
When asked about his charity work he talked about a "ledger" where the "good" would be made to "counterbalance" the "bad" when he was before St Peter or God. He seemed to think like this.
To some extent, we all think a bit like this. I recently went through a speed trap on my motorbike. I was slightly over the 60 mph speed limit on a dry empty road in broad daylight. I remember feeling aggrieved because I am always scrupulous about 30 mph limits. I felt that my unusual degree of compliance in one area ought to "offset" my minor infringement in another. (As it happens, no ticket arrived, so I must have been within the wiggle room the police allow.)

In the context of religion, it is easy to find examples of believers attaching enormous importance to one thing in their chosen book (e.g. homosexuality being forbidden) but you seldom find religious groups protesting at a sea food stall because it is selling shellfish, or waving banners outside farms where mixed breed cattle are kept.

"Show me what you find in your Bible and I will know you better."

Taking this form flimsy rationalisation as a norm of human behaviour, it is easy to see how someone whose behaviour is far outside the norm might rationalise in an extreme and absurd manner as has been suggested about Savile.

No one can help the urges they feel (I feel an urge almost every day to tell my customers what I really think) but someone who acts on urges that have appalling life-changing consequences for other people (such as a child molester) is either incredibly wicked, or mad, or both. That will affect all aspects of their thinking.

I wonder to what extent Savile's Roman Catholic upbringing made him feel guilt and shame, somewhere in the back of his mind. The RC upbringing embeds ideas of guilt and penance. (As Dara O'Briain says, "I'm an atheist, but I'm still a Catholic.")

In Roman Catholicism, there is a long history of rationalisation about sin and penance. Jesus may have neglected to mention it, but there is the concept of purgatory. In medieval times, the living could buy indulgences: pay money to the church to shorten the time in purgatory for family members who had already died.

For someone like Savile, who clearly had the disposition to pick and choose which parts of his childhood faith did or did not apply to him, it is easy to see how he could construct a rationalisation that involved him paying a fair price to be forgiven for his sins.

I'm not religious myself, but my understanding of the Christian faith is that God will forgive sins if the person truly repents. It is quite clear that repentance was not in Savile's mindset.
 
I was just thinking along similar lines, weren't a fair number of monastries, abbeys, cathedrals etc. built because the local Lord had been on a chevauchée and to atone for his sins founded a religious institution?
 
I was just thinking along similar lines, weren't a fair number of monastries, abbeys, cathedrals etc. built because the local Lord had been on a chevauchée and to atone for his sins founded a religious institution?
:nods: Savile's life was one long chevauchée.

I'm not religious myself, but my understanding of the Christian faith is that God will forgive sins if the person truly repents. It is quite clear that repentance was not in Savile's mindset.
Yup, I feel that this is why, in the recent TV drama, we were shown the porter witnessing Savile's final interaction with the priest.
If this did happen, he was the one person alive who could confirm whether Savile confessed or repented.
 
I'm half way through the first episode of The Reckoning. Steve Coogan is chilling. I'm finding it genuinely disturbing.

The one jarring thing in it for me though is Llandudno subbing for Scarborough. I'm not quite sure why the need for that, seems odd.
 
I seem to be in the minority who found The Reckoning... unwatchable (even though I did end up watching it all) and not for "creepy reasons". I thought Coogan was awful. Absolutely a mile wide of the mark as Savile- even the impersonation, which I heard as 100% Alan Partridge. There was none of the menace he was able to turn on with seemingly no effort. The script was piffle, giving Thatcher and the Royals a free pass and making out the upper echelons of the BBC- particularly Bill Cotton- were bumbling fools, but of course his female associate saw straight through Savile. And it used at least two egregious and invented scenes (both in the confessional box if memory serves) to hammer home a point that would have been better served with a dramatisation of things we *know* happened. A real missed opportunity, dramatically. But as ever, I appreciate others have a different view.
 
What will future people of make of the way we managed sexual predators and crimes etc? We aren't going to look good.
There aren't really very good ways of handling them. Yes, we were very poor in the past, but so many sexual abuse cases come down to one word against another and there isn't really a consistent answer as to how to deal with that. Often, even if the justice system is genuinely trying it's best, there is no easy resolution, and the police in particular are caught in the middle. This shouldn't have applied in the Savile case as there were multiple complainants, but against that, there was the man's perceived status as we have discussed.

This is an ongoing debate and I don't want to keep making the same points - this one was relevant.
 
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What will future people of make of the way we managed sexual predators and crimes etc? We aren't going to look good.

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As explained previously, this thread will remain narrowly focused on the Saville case.
 
I'm half way through the first episode of The Reckoning. Steve Coogan is chilling. I'm finding it genuinely disturbing.

The one jarring thing in it for me though is Llandudno subbing for Scarborough. I'm not quite sure why the need for that, seems odd.
I spotted Llandudno right away. We like to cycle along there.

Coogan as Savile would attract too much attention, perhaps even get get a kicking in Scarborough! :chuckle:
 
I seem to be in the minority who found The Reckoning... unwatchable (even though I did end up watching it all) and not for "creepy reasons". I thought Coogan was awful. Absolutely a mile wide of the mark as Savile- even the impersonation, which I heard as 100% Alan Partridge. There was none of the menace he was able to turn on with seemingly no effort. The script was piffle, giving Thatcher and the Royals a free pass and making out the upper echelons of the BBC- particularly Bill Cotton- were bumbling fools, but of course his female associate saw straight through Savile. And it used at least two egregious and invented scenes (both in the confessional box if memory serves) to hammer home a point that would have been better served with a dramatisation of things we *know* happened. A real missed opportunity, dramatically. But as ever, I appreciate others have a different view.
It's a drama, they have to make things up. :chuckle:

There are people alive now who are too young to remember Savile in his pomp. One hopes they are suitably shocked.
 
I seem to be in the minority who found The Reckoning... unwatchable (even though I did end up watching it all) and not for "creepy reasons". I thought Coogan was awful. Absolutely a mile wide of the mark as Savile- even the impersonation, which I heard as 100% Alan Partridge. There was none of the menace he was able to turn on with seemingly no effort. The script was piffle, giving Thatcher and the Royals a free pass and making out the upper echelons of the BBC- particularly Bill Cotton- were bumbling fools, but of course his female associate saw straight through Savile. And it used at least two egregious and invented scenes (both in the confessional box if memory serves) to hammer home a point that would have been better served with a dramatisation of things we *know* happened. A real missed opportunity, dramatically. But as ever, I appreciate others have a different view.

I noticed a bit of Partridge in there as well. However, I've always thought that there was a bit of Saville in Partridge.
 
I seem to be in the minority who found The Reckoning... unwatchable (even though I did end up watching it all) and not for "creepy reasons". I thought Coogan was awful. Absolutely a mile wide of the mark as Savile- even the impersonation, which I heard as 100% Alan Partridge. There was none of the menace he was able to turn on with seemingly no effort. The script was piffle, giving Thatcher and the Royals a free pass and making out the upper echelons of the BBC- particularly Bill Cotton- were bumbling fools, but of course his female associate saw straight through Savile. And it used at least two egregious and invented scenes (both in the confessional box if memory serves) to hammer home a point that would have been better served with a dramatisation of things we *know* happened. A real missed opportunity, dramatically. But as ever, I appreciate others have a different view.
I'd have to disagree. I don't think many actors could have done as good a job; David Tennant, possibly (His Nilson was brilliant). Most of us don't get to witness Savil at his threatening worst, but the poor taste, "It's only Jimmy" jokey type threats we saw for instance in the Louis Theroux interview and some others I thought came across quite well.

I was never a fan of any of his TV programmes, not because of him just not my sort of thing. I thought the "I'm a showoff pratt" image was just a TV persona until it began to dawn on me that it wasn't when seeing him do more "serious" interviews. However there were plenty of other people who were certainly a bit weird on TV then and there are now. It isn't an indicator of criminality.
 
I noticed a bit of Partridge in there as well. However, I've always thought that there was a bit of Saville in Partridge.
I think Coogan put a lot of himself into Partridge, inevitable as he played him for so long, and however good an actor you are some of your personality/mannerisms, etc. will creep into other parts you play.

I remember a couple of films where Peter Sellers sounded like Bluebottle!
 
For me, the only thing Coogan couldn't do - for obvious reasons - was JS's eyes.
Short of prosthetics, it's incredibly hard.
If this had been a fiction - an attempt at comedy - with the elderly Alan Partridge being 'exposed' then it'd be different.
What nailed it for me - and I wasn't a fan at the time - was the mannerisms, the linguistic patterns, the attitude of Savile. He was recognisably Savile ... until you looked at Coogans eyes.
 
For me, the only thing Coogan couldn't do - for obvious reasons - was JS's eyes.
Short of prosthetics, it's incredibly hard.
If this had been a fiction - an attempt at comedy - with the elderly Alan Partridge being 'exposed' then it'd be different.
What nailed it for me - and I wasn't a fan at the time - was the mannerisms, the linguistic patterns, the attitude of Savile. He was recognisably Savile ... until you looked at Coogans eyes.
It's acting innit. Coogan was playing an interpretation of Savile based on what we know about him.

The appearance - costume, hair, make-up to suggest ageing, and so on - is created by skilled industry professionals, as is the script.

Coogan's voice and his delivery of the lines, gestures and body language that he used to portray Savile are his personal contribution. That's the acting.
He can't change his eyes though. :chuckle:

The voice was already well-practiced as Coogan provided Savile's for Spitting Image.


There's also a clip available of a very young Coogan impersonating Savile to his very face on TV.
 
It's acting innit. Coogan was playing an interpretation of Savile based on what we know about him.

The appearance - costume, hair, make-up to suggest ageing, and so on - is created by skilled industry professionals, as is the script.

Coogan's voice and his delivery of the lines, gestures and body language that he used to portray Savile are his personal contribution. That's the acting.
He can't change his eyes though. :chuckle:

The voice was already well-practiced as Coogan provided Savile's for Spitting Image.


There's also a clip available of a very young Coogan impersonating Savile to his very face on TV.
A decent make up artist could have changed his eyes a number of ways including transfers, foam gelatine, wax, a good paint job etc .. hard scelra lenses aren't used anymore so it's gel based lenses for the eyes these days.
 
A decent make up artist could have changed his eyes a number of ways including transfers, foam gelatine, wax, a good paint job etc .. hard scelra lenses aren't used anymore so it's gel based lenses for the eyes these days.
Also... CGI.
 
A decent make up artist could have changed his eyes a number of ways including transfers, foam gelatine, wax, a good paint job etc .. hard scelra lenses aren't used anymore so it's gel based lenses for the eyes these days.
Also... CGI.
This isn't Hollywood. :chuckle:

We were watching Steve Coogan, not Audrey Hepburn in the Galaxy advert.
 
This isn't Hollywood. :chuckle:

We were watching Steve Coogan, not Audrey Hepburn in the Galaxy advert.
George Lucas came to England for the best artists, not Hollywood and Coogan knows enough talented people so they should have sorted the eyes out.. That Hepburn advert was excellent though. With Coogan's makeup for Saville, we weren't talking John Hurt as The Elephant Man obviously but as a previous poster has noted, David Tennent looked way better as Nielsen so what's Coogan's excuse IMO. It's often that actors like Coogan want to remain able to emote without being 'weighed down' with too much makeup. I clocked the liquid latex shadows feet technique around his eyes but that was it.
 
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It's often that actors like Coogan want to remain able to emote without being 'weighed down' with too much makeup. I clocked the liquid latex shadows feet technique around his eyes but that was it.
Yup, exactly. :nods:

Actors have played Joseph Merrick, the Elephant Man, on stage with no prosthetics. Just a spot of concentrated limping and gurning. Acting, y'see.
 
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