Sleep Paralysis & Night Hag Experience

[tattooted]

Emp--I did check out that link, but was slightly overwhelmed by the length, depth and girth of the survey. Now that I've written things up for this forum, I might try it again, armed with cut & paste where necessary.

When I have old hag anymore, the dreams will be set in the scenery of whatever bed I went to sleep in, no matter where it is. I once had this dream on a business trip in a hotel, and the setting was the hotel room that I only was in for that night. I really wonder if at some point in the dream my eyes really aren't open.

As for the rest, it's gotten funny--it'll start with the spectral tornado bit--but in a much lower key--just revving up enough tension so that my sleeping brain will recognize the drill, like pretending to be menacing when playing with pets. Almost immediately, the threatening, tormenting elements of OH will evaporate and I'll be in one of my fun dreams.

Strangely-the shorter and more timid the OH event, the less control I seem to have over the next segment. I do a brief flying bit, or have brief lucidity, and then go pretty quickly into a normal dream where I'm just viewing whatever happens again, not creating it.

 

[Bannik]

Re: "Breaking" the Night-Mare

I was having one of my episodes and a part of me, even in the midst of being convinced that the attack was real, just decided f*ck it--I'm sick of this. And I just gave up on my resistance, and let the presence "win". Immediately after, the OH dream turned into the most wonderful flying dream.

In my very limited experience with SP I've found that if I let go of resistance and go with it, it quickly turns into a nice dream (never having anything to do with flying, as far as I can recall) or, more often, I simply break free of my paralysis wake up. I don't think it would have ever occured to me to let go of resistance during these experiences if I hadn't become familiarized with Taoism and the whole doctrine of "going with the flow".

 

[mindalai]

Same here. I have SP all the time and I've eventually learnt that the only way to make it stop is to relax. When I give up and allow the "attack" to go on, I always drift back to sleep. (well, not so much drift as fall, but the point is I go back to sleep)

 

[Gemaki]

I've just seen another program on SP/Night Hag... only this one seems newer than most. They said that they have found that SP is indeed the brain not releasing the body from sleep mode. Since you're still asleep (as far as your brain is concerned) I imagine seeing the dream images would be really frightening. I think everyone should try just relaxing and letting go, especially as it doesn't seem like there is much else to do.

 

[lupinwick]

I suffered from sleep paralysis throughout my 20's. Never had it (as far as I know) before then, although I had a handful of sleep-walking incidents. Kicked in big style when I was living on my own.

It would start soon after going to bed, normally with a knocking/tapping sensation in back as if something was trying to get in, this would knock me into a kind of panic to move, having to force arms to find the light switch and so. Movement was of course difficult and painful. Often this was coupled with hallucinations, normally pools of light (sparked off by the glare of a street lamp) and disembodied heads swirling round the room. Throughout this there was also a sense of evil and foreboding, if I settled down to sleep then something really bad would happen. In the end I had to leave the light on in order to sleep.

When I met my partner (now wife) she heard of this (naturally) and she claims she did a small ritual to dispell the paralysis and fears (she's not into magic - though she knows something about) . Since then I've never had an attack or even the inkling of one starting.

I still wonder if its down to mental state as well. With me, being fairly unhappy seemed to be the key factor.

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

When I met my partner (now wife) she heard of this (naturally) and she claims she did a small ritual to dispell the paralysis and fears (she's not into magic - though she knows something about) . Since then I've never had an attack or even the inkling of one starting.

It'd be interesting to ask her what the spell was.

 

[lupinwick]

So would I.

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

Although this is an old article (and research has moved on a bit) - previously at:

www.suntimes.co.za/1999/07/18/news/news24.htm

I thought it worth throwing in as:

1. It shows a serious approach to a range of subjects that crop up on our Fortean radar.

2. It throws in other examples from other cultures.

Doctors get to grips with tokoloshes, witches and aliens

Sunday Times, South Africa, July 18, 1999
By Charmain Naidoo

THERE could be a new medical explanation for "tokoloshe" hauntings, alien abductions and night terrors: doctors are calling it sleep paralysis, a disorder that is the result of a disconnection between the brain and the body when a person is on the edge of sleep.

And it is turning out to be increasingly common. Recent studies in Canada, Japan, China and the US have suggested that sleep paralysis may strike at least 40 to 50 percent of all people at least once.

The New York Times cites the example of Jean Christophe Terrillon, a Canadian physicist doing research in Japan, who wakes up about once a week sensing the presence of a threatening, evil being beside his bed.

Terrified, he tries to move or cry for help, but is paralysed. He hears a ringing in his ears and feels a great weight on his chest as he struggles for breath. Sometimes he finds himself transported upward, looking down on his body.

Japan is the world leader in sleep-paralysis research.

The Japanese call it kanashibari and Kazuhiko Fukuda, a psychologist at Fukushima University in Japan, says it could explain claims of witchcraft and alien abduction.

He says: "We have a framework for it, but in North America there is no concept for people to understand what has happened to them."

In Newfoundland, Canada, a study found that more than 60 percent of the people surveyed had experienced "the terror".

In that region, the disorder is called "old hag" because it brings to mind an image of an old witch sitting on the chest of the paralysed sleeper - sometimes throttling them with her wizened hands.

Researchers have found that, while the symptoms of sleep paralysis might be similar, the images in the hallucinations and the interpretation of them vary from country to country.

In ancient Europe (as suggested by art and literature) sleep paralysis was seen as an abduction by witches who took the sleeper off on a broomstick ride. In China, it was called gui ya, or "ghost pressure", where a ghost sat on and assaulted the sleeper.

In the West Indies, it was called kokma - a baby ghost who jumped on the sleeper's chest and tightened its grip on the throat.

In Japan, it was a giant devil who placed its foot on the sleeper's chest. Now that witches on broomsticks have moved into the realm of disbelief, alien abductions have become the fashionable reason for the malady.

In recent years, there has been an increase in the number of people reporting alien kidnappings - all of whom tell of sensing a presence, hearing strange nonsensical sounds, seeing shadowy creatures in the room and experiencing immobility, a crushing pressure and pain all over the body.

There is also the sensation of floating or flying, hence the belief that the person is being transported to an alien ship.

However, there are those - including John E Mack, a Harvard University Medical School professor who believes in the possibility of alien abductions - who think that the sleep paralysis theory does not fit the evidence.

Despite years of study, especially in the last decade, sleep paralysis remains something of a mystery.

Experts cannot even say with certainty whether people are awake or sleeping when they are paralysed. Sleep paralysis seems to occur when the body enters REM - or rapid eye movement - sleep, when the body turns itself off and disconnects from the brain.

What researchers do not know is what occurs in the brain during sleep paralysis.

The person experiencing the paralysis feels awake and sees the room clearly, but experiments in Japan show that some people experiencing sleep paralysis do not even open their eyes.

www.rickross.com/reference/ufo/ufo10.html

More on tokoloshe can be found in these reports:

www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=91359#91359

www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 061#356061

www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 077#449077

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

I'm sure I checked this at the time but I had another nose around there and all these issues are available to download (a number of journals like the PNAS make all but the most recent issues available for download so its possible when I checked it was still embargoed) and it is jam packed full of great stuff:

The special issue of Transcultural Psychiatry is listed here:

http://tps.sagepub.com/content/vol42/issue1/

Sleep Paralysis
Contents: March 1 2005, Volume 42, No. 1


Devon E. Hinton, David J. Hufford, and Laurence J. Kirmayer
Culture and Sleep Paralysis
Transcultural Psychiatry 2005 42: 5-10.

David J. Hufford
Sleep Paralysis as Spiritual Experience
Transcultural Psychiatry 2005 42: 11-45.

This article presents an overview of the sleep paralysis experience from both a cultural and a historical perspective. The robust, complex phenomenological pattern that represents the subjective experience of sleep paralysis is documented and illustrated. Examples are given showing that, for a majority of subjects, sleep paralysis is taken to be a kind of spiritual experience. This is, in part, because of the very common perception of a non-physical ‘threatening presence’ that is part of the event. Examples from various cultures, including mainstream contemporary America which has no widely known tradition about sleep paralysis, are used to show that the complex pattern and spiritual interpretation are not dependent on cultural models or prior learning. This is dramatically contrary to conventional explanations of apparently ‘direct’ spiritual experiences, explanations that are summed up as the ‘Cultural Source Hypothesis.’ This aspect of sleep paralysis was not recognized through most of the twentieth century. The article examines the way that conventional modern views of spiritual experience, combined with medical ideas that labeled ‘direct’ spiritual experiences as psychopathological, and mainstream religious views of such experiences as heretical if not pathological, suppressed the report and discussion of these experiences in modern society. These views have resulted in confusion in the scientific literature on sleep paralysis with regard to its prevalence and core features. The article also places sleep paralysis in the context of other ‘direct’ spiritual experiences and offers an ‘Experiential Theory’ of cross-culturally distributed spiritual experiences.

Devon E. Hinton, Vuth Pich, Dara Chhean, and Mark H. Pollack
‘The Ghost Pushes You Down’: Sleep Paralysis-Type Panic Attacks in a Khmer Refugee Population
Transcultural Psychiatry 2005 42: 46-77.

Among a psychiatric population of Cambodian refugees (N = 100), 42% had current - i.e. at least once in the last year - sleep paralysis (SP). Of those experiencing SP, 91% (38/42) had visual hallucinations of an approaching being, and 100% (42/42) had panic attacks. Among patients with post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD; n = 45), 67% (30/45) had SP, whereas among those without PTSD, only 22.4% (11/45) had SP ({chi}2 = 20.4, p < .001). Of the patients with PTSD, 60% (27/45) had monthly episodes of SP. The Cambodian panic response to SP seems to be greatly heightened by elaborate cultural ideas - with SP generating concerns about physical status, ‘good luck’ status,‘bad luck’ status, sorcery assault, and ghost assault - and by trauma associations to the figure seen in SP. Case vignettes illustrate cultural beliefs about, and trauma resonances of, SP. A model to explain the high rate of SP in this population is presented. SP is a core aspect of the Cambodian refugees response to trauma; when assessing Cambodian refugees, and traumatized refugees in general, clinicians should assess for its presence.

Joop T. V. M. De Jong
Cultural Variation in the Clinical Presentation of Sleep Paralysis
Transcultural Psychiatry 2005 42: 78-92.

Sleep paralysis is one of the lesser-known and more benign forms of parasomnias. The primary or idiopathic form, also called isolated sleep paralysis, is illustrated by showing how patients from different cultures weave the phenomenology of sleep paralysis into their clinical narratives. Clinical case examples are presented of patients from Guinea Bissau, the Netherlands, Morocco, and Surinam with different types of psychopathology, but all accompanied by sleep paralysis. Depending on the meaning given to and etiological interpretations of the sleep paralysis, which is largely culturally determined, patients react to the event in specific ways.

Samuel Law and Laurence J. Kirmayer
Inuit Interpretations of Sleep Paralysis
Transcultural Psychiatry 2005 42: 93-112.

Traditional and contemporary Inuit concepts of sleep paralysis were investigated through interviews with elders and young people in Iqaluit, Baffin Island. Sleep paralysis was readily recognized by most respondents and termed uqumangirniq (in the Baffin region) or aqtuqsinniq (Kivalliq region). Traditional interpretations of uqumangirniq referred to a shamanistic cosmology in which the individual’s soul was vulnerable during sleep and dreaming. Sleep paralysis could result from attack by shamans or malevolent spirits. Understanding the experience as a manifestation of supernatural power, beyond one’s control, served to reinforce the experiential reality and presence of the spirit world. For contemporary youth, sleep paralysis was interpreted in terms of multiple frameworks that incorporated personal, medical, mystical, traditional/shamanistic, and Christian views, reflecting the dynamic social changes taking place in this region.

Richard J. McNally and Susan A. Clancy
Sleep Paralysis, Sexual Abuse, and Space Alien Abduction
Transcultural Psychiatry 2005 42: 113-122.

Sleep paralysis accompanied by hypnopompic (‘upon awakening’) hallucinations is an often-frightening manifestation of discordance between the cognitive/perceptual and motor aspects of rapid eye movement (REM) sleep. Awakening sleepers become aware of an inability to move, and sometimes experience intrusion of dream mentation into waking consciousness (e.g. seeing intruders in the bedroom). In this article, we summarize two studies. In the first study, we assessed 10 individuals who reported abduction by space aliens and whose claims were linked to apparent episodes of sleep paralysis during which hypnopompic hallucinations were interpreted as alien beings. In the second study, adults reporting repressed, recovered, or continuous memories of childhood sexual abuse more often reported sleep paralysis than did a control group. Among the 31 reporting sleep paralysis, only one person linked it to abuse memories. This person was among the six recovered memory participants who reported sleep paralysis (i.e. 17% rate of interpreting it as abuse-related). People rely on personally plausible cultural narratives to interpret these otherwise baffling sleep paralysis episodes.

Cheryl M. Paradis and Steven Friedman
Sleep Paralysis in African Americans with Panic Disorder
Transcultural Psychiatry 2005 42: 123-134.

Studies have reported a wide range in lifetime prevalence of sleep paralysis (SP). This variation may stem from cultural factors, stressful life events and genetic differences in studied populations. We found that recurrent SP was more common among African-American participants, especially those with panic disorder. Recurrent SP was reported by 59% of African Americans with panic disorder, 7% of whites with panic disorder, 23% of African-American community volunteers and 6% of white community volunteers. Significantly more early life stressors were reported by African Americans than whites. Higher levels of psychosocial stressors, including poverty, racism and acculturation, may contribute to the higher rates of SP experienced by African Americans.

Albert Yeung, Yong Xu, and Doris F. Chang
Prevalence and Illness Beliefs of Sleep Paralysis among Chinese Psychiatric Patients in China and the United States
Transcultural Psychiatry 2005 42: 135-145.

To investigate the prevalence and illness beliefs of sleep paralysis (SP) among Chinese patients in a psychiatric out-patient clinic, consecutive Chinese/Chinese-American patients who attended psychiatric out-patient clinics in Boston and Shanghai were asked about their lifetime prevalence, personal experience and perceptions regarding the causes, precipitating factors, consequences, and help-seeking of SP. During the 4-month study period, 42 non-psychotic psychiatric out-patients from the Boston site and 150 patients from the Shanghai site were interviewed. The prevalence of SP was found to be 26.2% in Boston and 23.3% in Shanghai. Patients with post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) or panic disorder reported a higher prevalence of SP than did patients without these disorders. Patients attributed SP to fatigue, stress, and other psychosocial factors. Although the experience has traditionally been labeled ‘ghost oppression’ among the Chinese, only two patients, one from each site, endorsed supernatural causes of their SP. Sleep paralysis is common among Chinese psychiatric out-patients. The endorsement of supernatural explanations for SP is rare among contemporary Chinese patients.

 

[tattooted]

...contemporary America which has no widely known tradition about sleep paralysis..

I wonder if Americans and inhabitants of other modern nations are more likely to interpret old hag incidents as UFO abductions because there are no known traditions about it. When I first started investigating my own old hag dreams, in the late 1970's, there wasn't any information available. I guess I'm fortunate that I never considered that they might be anything but a weird form of a dream.

It seems weird that information about SP/OH episodes still isn't more widely available, considering how many people have them. An informed public would be less likely to interepret the dreams in a demonic visit/alien abduction framework. Maybe the US Surgeon General could start a public information campaign.

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

...contemporary America which has no widely known tradition about sleep paralysis..

I wonder if Americans and inhabitants of other modern nations are more likely to interpret old hag incidents as UFO abductions because there are no known traditions about it. When I first started investigating my own old hag dreams, in the late 1970's, there wasn't any information available. I guess I'm fortunate that I never considered that they might be anything but a weird form of a dream.

Doesn't stop it rom being pant scaringly scary at the time - it does mean you don't seek out hypnotists (and other therapists) who can mae matters worse.

What is interesting is that as US cultural influence becomes ubiquituous the explanations became far more abduction oriented. What we in developed countries has done is jetison all the folklore which was in place to explain this kind of thing without having anything in its place and the abduction phenomena seems to have filled that vacuum. Its not just SP though it is used for a whole range of things from mysery injuries to feeling different from other people - things thatwould be accomodated by demons or by training people to be shamans, etc.

It seems weird that information about SP/OH episodes still isn't more widely available, considering how many people have them. An informed public would be less likely to interepret the dreams in a demonic visit/alien abduction framework. Maybe the US Surgeon General could start a public information campaign.

It came up a bit here:

www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13523

and I think teaching people about critical thinking as well as the scientific method, SP, etc. are vital life skills and Forteana is a great hook to get kids engaged (whos going to skip a lesson on alien abduction and demon attack??). The earlier the better as a lot of attacks can start in childhood.

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

Interesting one - the flames and cement debris are fascinating extra elements:

Attacked by "invisible creatures"

By: Wilson Dzebu

MAKOLONGWE – A 30-year-old man alleges that he was attacked by what he calls ‘invisible creatures’ while he was asleep on Friday night. He said the devilish torture lasted for approximately 20 minutes.

Ndivhuwo Rammbuda (30) of Makolongwe, near Shadani, said he locked his one-roomed house as usual before he went to bed on Friday night. He explains how the troubles started at midnight: “I make sure that I close all the windows of my house and lock the door before I go to sleep each night. I thought I was dreaming when I saw two creatures the size of small piglets making a terrible noise inside my house. They then moved into my bed and started mishandling me. I don’t know how they got inside the room as the door was locked. After some time, the creatures disappeared and the next minute there was a big banging sound. I tried to scream but my voice could not come out…”

Ndivhuwo said his room was immediately filled with flames but they didn’t burn him. He suspects it was ndadzi (a special bird that superstitiously emits flames to kill its object) that was sent by witches to destroy him. “While I was still in shock, cement debris started attacking me as it fell on my bed like rain. I covered my whole body with a blanket to avoid injury. Thereafter came a dead silence, but I could not sleep until the next morning…”

The visibly shocked bachelor said when he woke up in the morning he found that his stoep was damaged and the cement debris that “attacked” him on his bed was the remains of his stoep.

“I’m still puzzled how the cement debris got into my house because the door was locked. It is also still a mystery how it managed to fly into my house to come and attack me in my sleep…”

The cement debris still bears testimony to the memorable event because Ndivhuwo did not throw it away. His house was slightly damaged on top of one window frame and a corrugated iron on the roof was slightly damaged.

However, Ndivhuwo remains adamant that he will not move out of his house, despite the attack. “I will rather die here than moving out. I think these are the works of jealous people who want to destroy my life. I will never give in and I will continue with life until I win my battle for a better life…”

A well-known Limpopo traditional healer, Dr Zacharia Ramaliba, says mysterious experiences like this happen but he denied that it was a ndadzi. “If it were a ndadzi, it would have killed him, or he might have fainted, while his tongue protrudes out of his mouth. He would even not tolerate its odour because of its strength. I cannot deny or confirm that these are the works of some people but I advise him to do something about it…”

Pastor Mboswobeni Mankhili of the Wells of Revival Church says Ndivhuwo should turn to God to avoid things of this nature. “Only the power of prayer can save him and the choice is his whether to choose life or death…”

----------------
© Copyright exists on all material used in this site!

www.zoutnet.co.za/news/details.asp?StoNum=3904

 

[wyrdbyrd]

I've only had sleep paralysis a couple of times - the first time I could sit up to about 45 degrees but couldnt move any further than that and couldnt open my eyes. It was annoying more than scary. The second time I thought that there was someone sitting on the edge of my bed but couldnt move. My boyfriend has a mate who gets it all the time and it sounds horrific - one time he saw little girl in the corner of his room and when he tried to say hello her face turned demonic, and she lunged at him, like that bit in 'Ghostbusters'. (you know the part I mean) He mentioned another time where he saw 2 red dots floating in his wardrobe and thought 'uh-oh' just before he realised it was the eyes of a demonic dog which pounced on his bed and began to savage him, but he couldnt move to fight it off. Then he woke up.

 

[OldTimeRadio]

SP Questions

Since the physiological purpose of SP seems to be the prevention of the sleeper acting out in the "real" world those motions which he/she is making in the dream state, a few questions arise:

1. Do individuals with an active history of sleepwalking ever experience SP?

2. Do sleepwalkers ever report Old Hags?

3. Are Old Hags encountered by people who DON'T experience SP?

4. And what IS the actual connection between SP and Old Hag? Why should a perfectly natural process such as SP result in the visualization of a malignantly evil old crone?

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

Re: SP Questions

4. And what IS the actual connection between SP and Old Hag? Why should a perfectly natural process such as SP result in the visualization of a malignantly evil old crone?

Well it needn't. Old Hag is just a term used in certain aprts of the world (e.g. Newfoundland) and, as I've said before and as this thread demonstrates, the range of things encountered is mind boggling.

On the other questions sleep walking is a seperate parasomnia - I wouldn't be suprised if some people who suffer SP also sleep walk and some don't. I can't see why they'd be mutually exclusive as neither happens everytime someone sleeps.

 

[OldTimeRadio]

Epiphany

Which came first, the "Witch" (in the village beldame sense, with her herbs and philtres) OR the "Old Hag" of SP?

Is it possible that Europeans burned all those thousands of "witches" during the 15th century MERELY because those innocent old ladies so closely resembled the "Old Hags" of their dreams?

Does the entire concept of the "witch," from the most ancient times on, originate FROM the "Old Hag" experienced during sleep?

But even if this is all true, it does nothing to explain the "why" of the Old Hag in the FIRST place.

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

Re: Epiphany

Which came first, the "Witch" (in the village beldame sense, with her herbs and philtres) OR the "Old Hag" of SP?

Is it possible that Europeans burned all those thousands of "witches" during the 15th century MERELY because those innocent old ladies so closely resembled the "Old Hags" of their dreams?

Does the entire concept of the "witch," from the most ancient times on, originate FROM the "Old Hag" experienced during sleep?

But even if this is all true, it does nothing to explain the "why" of the Old Hag in the FIRST place.

Old Hag is just shorthand - it often doesn't even refer to seeing old women during an SP attack. In Newfoundland all SP attacks are called Old Hag attacks but may not fetaure some kind of crone (see Hufford's book). The actual appearance of an old woman isn't any more common than dogs, demons, ghost, shadows, red heads, etc.

An old woman/wise woman is an archetype/iconic image and so we'd tend classify certain types into that general category.

The witch trails had very complex reasons beyond SP. During the Medieval period we hear lots of reports of demons, vampires, etc. and if old women were encountered it would be interpretted within the general framework of the time - I'd imagine that animals encountered in dreams would be consider either familiars or some servant of Satan for example.

I'm not aware of a an outbreak of witch burning connected with SP but there may have been some but it wasn't the root of this.

 

[OldTimeRadio]

Re: SP Questions

"Well it needn't. Old Hag is just a term used in certain aprts of the world (e.g. Newfoundland) and, as I've said before and as this thread demonstrates, the range of things encountered is mind boggling."

Sorry, I should have added the usual boilerplate that many other visualizations are experienced than just "Old Hags." I've engaged in correspondence over the years with a well-known and responsible female Fortean whose sleep has often been plagued by young, handsome and overwhelmingly seductive male entities - physically gorgeous but just as noissomely wicked as the "Old Hags."

But the "Old Hag" seems to comprise the LARGEST SINGLE CATEGORY. That's why the phenomenon is called "Old Hag" rather than "Good-Looking Young Devil."

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

Re: SP Questions

But the "Old Hag" seems to comprise the LARGEST SINGLE CATEGORY. That's why the phenomenon is called "Old Hag" rather than "Good-Looking Young Devil."

I'm not sure of your numbers but my research doesn't support that contention (just read all the experiences in this thread for one). Old Hag is just one term for it - you could say you had an Old Hag experience without the entity being some kind of crone. It is often just used as a synonym for SP rather than as a classification of the type.

"Good-Looking Young Devil" is more often called an incubus.

 

[OldTimeRadio]

Re: Epiphany

"The actual appearance of an old woman isn't any more common than dogs, demons, ghost, shadows, red heads, etc."

With all respect, Emps, that's where we differ. Of course I could be simply flat-out wrong.

So have any actual STATISTICS yet been compiled on the FREQUENCY of the various types of "visitations"?

I could compile a fair set of them from my own files, but they would be suspect (even to me) because they were compiled by me.

 

[tattooted]

Your (Emps and OTR) discussion regarding what entitities Old Hag sufferers commonly do and don't see made me wonder. Does OH sufferers ever see anyone they know from real life as the persecutor in their dreams? For example, instead of seeing a generic threatening crone, they see Sr. Ephignia Magdalena, their 4th grade math teacher who took a sadistic joy in rapping knuckles with a ruler.

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

Re: Epiphany

tattooted: Interesting question - I'm sure it has happened but I can't put my finger on an example. Even cases where someone is believed to be hagging someone else the entity isn't described as looking like the other person.

One might imagine someone phobic of spiders would see spiders but I'm not aware of this happening (although again someone might have a case or two).

The entity seems to come out of the blue although I wouldn't rely on that to cover every case.

With all respect, Emps, that's where we differ. Of course I could be simply flat-out wrong.

Different data sets may suggest differnt things - I'd just recommend people read through this thread and the other SP IHTM and make their own minds up.

So have any actual STATISTICS yet been compiled on the FREQUENCY of the various types of "visitations"?

I could compile a fair set of them from my own files, but they would be suspect (even to me) because they were compiled by me.

See the problem is that to compile statistics you'd need to classify them and part of the problem is classification - as mentioned earlier some people claim that aliens are seen more often or crones, etc but this is because they are well known archetypes. You'd have a few of these arbitary categories and the bulk would fall in some category of other. Well technically I suspect nothing whatsoever would be the largest category - the cases where people described being hagged largely invovle an unseen entity and the feeling of terror and a crushing weight.

 

[Bannik]

Okinawa's anser to the Old Hag - the Kijimunaa:

This spirit is believed to live in the hollows of banyan and other large trees. Kijimunaa loves to fish but hates octopus and has a reputation for eating the left eye of any fish it catches. You may spot this spirit walking through forested valleys and mountains or along the beach carrying a flame or firebrand.
This small, child-like sprite has been known to approach sleeping people and press itself on the person's chest, making it impossible for the person to get up or move. Being mysteriously immobilized like this is called kanashibari in Japanese.
Stories exist of people who managed to get on good terms with Kijimunaa and become rich as a consequence, but when these relationships turned sour the person ended up chasing Kijimunaa away by throwing octopuses at it.

The Kijimunaa appearance, while sometimes elf-like, sometimes more like that of an alien: http://www.kk-heart.jp/mu/uma208.htm
http://www10.ocn.ne.jp/~hiko/kijimuna.htm

 

[TheQuixote]

Your (Emps and OTR) discussion regarding what entitities Old Hag sufferers commonly do and don't see made me wonder. Does OH sufferers ever see anyone they know from real life as the persecutor in their dreams?

I have but SP/OH isn't always about the feeling of persecution, rather you have the encounters and you know that something is wrong, not quite right (and that's when the 'fear' kicks in) and add that to the paralysed state that you're stuck in.

I've 'seen' people from friends, family members, people and service users that I worked with during an episode. I've also 'seen' figures & saints from various religions that have been suggested to me to use or think of in order to stop being so frightened except it made it worse and I was even more frightened in the one instance

I've never encountered an Old Crone in my episodes even though I get the pressure on my chest etc.. I had always assumed (until I read up on SP in detail) that the Hag element came from the old saying 'Hag ridden' in that people who woke up exhausted in the morning would beleive or assume that they had been transformed into an animal during the night by a witch and then used to roam the countryside and I think it was also used to refer to horses that would be found covered in white sweat the next day in the stables.

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

I've 'seen' people from friends, family members, people and service users that I worked with during an episode. I've also 'seen' figures & saints from various religions that have been suggested to me to use or think of in order to stop being so frightened except it made it worse and I was even more frightened in the one instance

Oooooo - cool (in a not cool for you kind of way). If you don't mind what religious figures did you see? Amd which one was really frightening? I'd imagine Jesus in Sacred Heart mode would be pretty freaky but the irony of say Buddha looming over someone would be interesting.

 

[TheQuixote]

Amd which one was really frightening?

I thought I'd already posted this... anyway I was told to think of a benign sufi saint who would 'protect' me, just a kindly old man, when I felt that I was having an episode. I guess similar to creating a tulpa.

It was frightening in that I 'sensed' the figure was peering at me quite close to my face and I felt, during the episode, really intimidated by it because I was very aware of being naked underneath the duvet. All a bit screwy really and it was the last time I tried something like it to get out of a SP episode.

 

[OneWingedBird]

but when these relationships turned sour the person ended up chasing Kijimunaa away by throwing octopuses at it.

That is superb. I think that would get rid of me wether i was hagging someone or not

I'd have to admit that i've had a lot of SP experiences and the classic old crone has never appeared. One time I had an old man who was stood at the foot of the bed, another time a naked younger man burst into the room and tried to r*pe me, and more often i've had some sort of small goblin or monkey type creature in the room with me. Sometimes i've had strange cats that i didn't recognise too. But usually it's just a presence and an intense fear.

 

[OldTimeRadio]

"Does OH sufferers ever see anyone they know from real life as the persecutor in their dreams?"

I've read one case in which the percipient saw his own long-dead grandfather. However, this experience seems to have been devoid of the malignant feelings which usually dog such episodes.

 

[OldTimeRadio]

Statistics

Emps, I spent a long afternoon going through my SP files and attempting to compile statistics as to both types and frequency of OH visualizations

I'm only about one-third of the way through, but so far I've established 22 categories. Of those, "Old Crone" accounts are indeed the largest single group, at 26 1/4 percent of the reports. The nearest runners-up are "Demons" (10 percent) and "Black or Dark Shadow Entities" at 8 3/4 percent. For what it's worth, "Old Man" reports come in at a mere 3 3/4 percent.

Now the charge may be leveled that I unconsciously selected for "Crones," but if that were truly the case I don't believe I would have come up with (so far) 22 types.

 

[tattooted]

OTR-do invisible entities have a showing? Are the files all of cases where the dreamer knew of/accepted that the dream was an OH/SP episode, or are sleep attacks that are seen by the dreamer as coming from a supernatural/alien source included?

I'm curious because I wonder whether an African villager who has heard stories of the winged little man who molests dreamers while they sleep would be more likely to see a dream attacker in this form because their subconscious mind already has the mugshot. Likewise, a religious fundamentalist might think that demons came to visit, while a teenager who just read Communion might think he'd been pwned by the greys.

On the other hand, my dreams featured an invisible entity, a sort of "psychic tornado." Although I found the OH/SP episodes terrifying, the lack of an attacker who matched any known archetype made it easier for me to come around to the belief that they were just weird dreams. Conversely, I bet that those who see forms such as demons or evil crones probably have a harder time believing that this is a natural physiological phenomenon versus something of a supernatural origin.

So the real question to me would be, of all the dream attacks that were interpreted by the dreamer as being OH/SP episodes, what was the makeup of the dream attacker? If you put aside all of the OH forms that are culturally, (or religiously, if that is a large part of the culture) suggested, what form does OH take then?

That leads me to another pondering--why are people in the US and the UK still seeing malevolent crones at all? There isn't a lot of cultural stuff out there that still is feeding that archetype, as far as I can tell. Hansel and Gretel, the Wicked Witch of the West in the Wizard of Oz, Roald Dahl's the Witches, Witchie Poo from H.R. Puf'n'Stuff--but surely it takes more than this to keep the Old Hag thought construct alive? It almost is enough to make you think that there sometimes is a real outside entity at the bottom of OH/SP.