The Yuba County Five: 'An American Dyatlov Pass' Incident (1978)

[CuriousIdent]

It would be nowadays. It wasn't 40 years ago.

Oh, I wasn't really considering that in terms of political correctness. That I appreciate would have been acceptable terminology back in the 70s. Much as 'Spastic' was still acceptable in the UK.

What I mean is the press piece decided upon their focus from the start. This isn't 'Five Yuba County Men disappear' this is 'Five retarded men disappear'. They clearly feel that the mental condition is important detail here, and if you lead with that I think it's hard not to have that influence the remainder of an investigation.

 

[EnolaGaia]

Yes, it's unfortunate. He may be the only witness on the scene. But he may not actually have seen anything. His testimony is somewhat unreliable because of the cardiac event. ...

Right ... It doesn't mean his recollections were necessarily 100% false, but it pretty much eliminates them as anything one can leverage in trying to make sense of what happened.

I'd also point out the Los Angeles Times text is the first account (I've seen ... ) that indicates Schons was in substantial distress. Some other accounts - particularly the regurgitated / recycled ones - give the impression he was simply exhausted and would only learn later he'd suffered a real cardiac incident.

There seems to be no question Madruga's car arrived and was abandoned by the time Schons gave up and started his hike back to Mountain House.

The problem is understanding whether, and how many, other vehicles may have come up that road, encountered Schons' car, and simply retreated. If Schon was correct that someone arrived between 2300 and midnight, it almost certainly wasn't the 'boys'.

There's no reason to rule out the possibility there were two arrivals while Schons was resting in his car - neither involving the 'boys', and both representing people who found the road blocked and simply retreated.

Now that we know how deep the snow cover was at the scene, it would seem all the more critical to have evaluated whatever tracks were visible at the scene.

I'd also point out that we still have no idea what time it was when Schons began his hike or when he reached Mountain House.

 

[EnolaGaia]

Oh, I wasn't really considering that in terms of political correctness. ...

What I mean is the press piece decided upon their focus from the start. This isn't 'Five Yuba County Men disappear' this is 'Five retarded men disappear'. They clearly feel that the mental condition is important detail here, and if you lead with that I think it's hard not to have that influence the remainder of an investigation.

Thanks for the clarification. My guess is that the newspaper elected to gloss the phrasing to emphasize the guys' special status and draw attention to the notion these 5 were probably more vulnerable / at risk than just any 5 guys.

 

[EnolaGaia]

...The part which stands out for me with the Brownsville sighting is that it doesn't appear to involve the Mercury. They reference seeing the 'boys' in a red pickup truck. Now the only reason that stands out is based on on Schons testimony describing a second vehicle - specifically a Red Pickup Truck. ...

???? ... None of the sources mention Schons specifying a color for the pickup truck he originally alleged he'd seen. Red was the color of the pickup truck the Brownsville woman cited as the vehicle carrying the five men she (mis-?) identified as the missing 'boys'.

 

[EnolaGaia]

... It does seem unlikely. But... the only way in which I can see him doing that is if he was being forced to.

Allow me to indulge a vague 'what if' scenario here. Not saying I believe in it, but I've been toying with logical motivations for how this could have worked at all.

Let's say for the sake of this, that Schons was not mistaken on one key detail. That he got his times wrong maybe, but he actually did see two vehicles up that road.

Madruga's Mercury and a Red Pickup truck owned by a third party. ...

It's a lot of maybes, I know, but also the only way I can think to resolve that Brownsville sighting as genuine.

It's far more believable to consider that it wasn't genuine, that the Red Pickup Truck the witness refers to comes directly from reading Schons' account in the press, and that the witness is after a stake of money offered for information. ...

There are multiple speculative scenarios that would account for Schons' two-vehicle recollection. I don't see a Brownsville angle as being one of the more likely versions, though. My main reason for saying this is that one has to explain how the 'boys' got back up into the mountains afterward.

Another problem with this and other pickup-related scenarios is that they require one to swallow the notion of five men riding together in a pickup truck in late February. Extended and crew cab pickups were not common in those days, and February (even in the foothills) is no time to be riding in a pickup's bed.

 

[CuriousIdent]

???? ... None of the sources mention Schons specifying a color for the pickup truck he originally alleged he'd seen. Red was the color of the pickup truck the Brownsville woman cited as the vehicle carrying the five men she (mis-?) identified as the missing 'boys'.

You are correct. My bad. The colour is not specified:

"Schons told officials initially that he had seen two sets of headlights, one that of a pickup, come behind him about 11:30 p.m. as he lay in his car in pain, trying to keep warm.

He told his wife he had seen a pickup truck behind the car. He said he got out and yelled for help, but that the several persons parked about 20 feet behind him then drove away in one car."

But the colour was not specified.

 

[EnolaGaia]

RE: The Forbestown connection ...

I suppose that may have not been considered relevant information by the time of the WP article. ...

The authorities checked with a single person known to have been acquainted with Mathias, who told them he hadn't seen Gary in over a year. It would have appeared to be a dead end line of inquiry - checked and checked off. However ...

The bit that's new to me is that Forbestown was reputed to be a haven for young folks who wanted to 'drop out'.

That sort of late 1970's community was usually a quiet nexus for drug-related activities. Mathias' discharge from the Army wasn't solely because of his schizophrenia; there were unspecified issues relating to drug use. Mathias had been living at his family home and working for his stepfather (the seemingly grumpy / pessimistic Mr. Klopf) for at least two solid years. Getting to Forbestown is the only substantive explanation for why the 'boys' drove eastward from Oroville that Friday night, onto the very road where the car would get stuck.

Here are two (admittedly wildly speculative) scenarios that come to mind:

Mathias convinced Madruga to make a side trip to the Forbestown area either:

(a) to obtain some drugs OR
(b) to drop off Mathias, who'd quietly planned to 'drop out' and was using the Chico trip as a cover for his getaway.

The 'deliver Mathias' (b) version could go something like this:

- Mathias announces he's leaving and directs the group to take him to Forbestown.
- They part company, with Mathias convincing Weiher to swap shoes with him (Mathias is heading to parts unknown and could really use the boots; Weiher can wear Mathias' sneakers the rest of the way home, because they're not up in the mountains with deep snow all around).
- The four remaining Gateway Gators head back from Forbestown, Madruga makes a wrong turn (right rather than left) onto the very road the car would be found on, and they drive off toward disaster.
- The four die. Mathias' body is never found, because Mathias wasn't with them on the last leg of their doomed trip.

 

[genex17]

Well, definitely strange, but not approaching Dyatlov Pass levels. That one involved high strangeness.

 

[EnolaGaia]

Well, definitely strange, but not approaching Dyatlov Pass levels. That one involved high strangeness.

Agreed ... The Dyatlov party consisted of experienced winter trekkers who were well-equipped for the expected conditions. Their abandoning their equipment and wandering off to die seems stranger than this scenario - i.e., a group of 4 or 5 mentally challenged (and inexperienced) guys finding all the necessary equipment for survival and failing to effectively exploit it.

 

[EnolaGaia]

I rummaged around to locate the bit about the guys having opened and presumably consumed 36 of the C-rations stored at the cabin-trailer site. This account:

https://www.strangeoutdoors.com/mysterious-stories-blog/2017/12/7/mathias-group-from-yuba-city

... is the one (AFAIK the only one ... ) that cites that figure.

I had focused on this C-ration consumption factoid because it's one of only two quantitative clue for what transpired at the cabin-trailer. The other quantitative clue is that 3 Forest Service blankets were found discarded a quarter-mile from the cabin-trailer.

The C-ration consumption provides a crude basis for estimating how long all the guys who made it to the cabin-trailer stayed there as a group. Unfortunately the estimates would vary depending on a number of other unknown variables.

The three-blanket bit provides a clue to how many of the guys possibly attempted a break-out hike carrying equipment they'd acquired at the cabin-trailer site.

It seems to me that even though the numbers (and interpretations thereof ... ) can vary quite a bit, it looks like at least 4 made it to the cabin-trailer and at least 3 attempted a break-out after roughly a week or so.

My point is that the vague quantitative evidence would support the grim conclusion that Weiher (disabled at the cabin-trailer) was quite likely to have been the only one still alive two weeks after the night of their dsappearance, when the March 10 newspaper article appeared.

The account cited above also states, "One of the c-ration cans had been opened with an Army P38 can opener." I'd love to know whether this means:

(a) One of the cans was definitely opened with a P-38 opener, so this is presumed to be how they accessed the contents of all 36

versus:

(b) Only one of the 36 cans had been opened with the military issue opener, and the others had been opened some other way.

 

[EnolaGaia]

The Los Angeles Times ran a follow-up article in June 1978 (after the bodies had been located). The 3-page or 3-part article (excerpted and saved as JPG images) can be accessed at:

https://imgur.com/a/dlyQS

 

[Yithian]

The Los Angeles Times ran a follow-up article in June 1978 (after the bodies had been located). The 3-page or 3-part article (excerpted and saved as JPG images) can be accessed at:

https://imgur.com/a/dlyQS

Good find--thank you for digging it up.

 

[genex17]

That's it. They went off their usual route at night time no less, to try their luck on a mountain road ending 5000 ft just above the snowline. That's a two lane road and no streetlights. From the articles EnolaGaia referenced, no obvious evidence of foul play and sketchy witness accounts.

I was stationed at Beale Air Force Base east of Marysville-Yuba City a few years before this happened and being adventurous I took treks that make me wonder why I'm still here.

 

[EnolaGaia]

Thanks ...

Here are some factoids that (AFAIK) appear only in the June 1978 follow-up article ...

- In addition to the wallet, etc., found next to Weiher's body in the cabin-trailer there was also a partially melted candle.

- Some burnt / expended matches were found in the bathroom area of the trailer - the only hard evidence of fire usage other than the partially melted candle.

- A number of articles (heavy clothing, burn-able paperback books / notebooks, etc.) were 'strewn haphazardly' around the trailer's interior.

- This article gives the clearest indication of something I'd suspected - that there had been no attempt to cover or block the broken-out trailer window by which the guys had presumably obtained entry. This strikes me as one of the strangest oversights of all.

- There were one or more bunks in the trailer, and Weiher's body was found on the one closest to the broken-out window.

- This article confirms the quantity of C-rations opened (36). It's the only source I recall seeing that specifies the C-ration cans (which contained multiple subsidiary packages / items) were emptied. I'd been wondering whether the C-rations had been completely consumed.

- Multiple accounts mention that a Forest Service Sno-Cat (tracked vehicle) had traveled farther up that road the day before their disappearance, leaving a pair of packed-down paths leading up the road. It was commonly surmised these tracks provided a feasible (or maybe even inviting ... ) pathway along which the guys could have hiked. This follow-up article adds something I don't recall seeing before - that the Sno-Cat tracks led directly to the cabin-trailer site, where a worker had cleared snow off the trailer preparatory to closing the area for the winter.* The Sno-Cat tracks therefore offered not only a feasible path forward but could not help but lead them to the cabin-trailer.

*NOTE: The blizzard that hit circa Tuesday the 28th (aborting the search that had started that day or the day before ... ) was mentioned elsewhere as having dumped enough snow to bog down the available Sno-Cats, at least one of which was a problem to extricate and recover. From the time of the blizzard onward, not even the Sno-Cats could proceed up that road.

 

[genex17]

If was rough for seasoned rescue crews, then I guess these lads were in trouble deep.

 

[Yithian]

I was stationed at Beale Air Force Base east of Marysville-Yuba City a few years before this happened and being adventurous I took treks that make me wonder why I'm still here.

Would you care to describe the terrain/vegetation/climatic conditions in the area?

 

[EnolaGaia]

... I was stationed at Beale Air Force Base east of Marysville-Yuba City a few years before this happened and being adventurous I took treks that make me wonder why I'm still here.

Yep - there's some considerably rugged country up there.

If was rough for seasoned rescue crews, then I guess these lads were in trouble deep.

I fear they stood little chance of survival after Friday night, and zero chance once that blizzard cut them off from even the professionals with the Sno-Cats.

I'm still curious as to whether there had been any signs of the guys' tracks leading onward up the road (past Schons' VW location) when they finally discovered the scene of the car abandonment. It still bothers me to think the investigating parties could have seen evidence the 'boys' had hiked away in the least-reasonable direction but somehow missed it.

 

[genex17]

Would you care to describe the terrain/vegetation/climatic conditions in the area?

Sure. Where I was is located 39 Degrees North, or about where Madrid,Spain is on the Continent. The weather is mild on the Central Valley floor, 55 F, as I write this. It's flat as a pancake and very good farmland. 11 miles east of that is Beale AFB. It's flat grassland and treeless. That's the eastern edge of the valley going for the foothills of the Sierra Nevada. I did not have a car, but I went outside the East Gate and I remember making it to Highway 20. It went from barren to light forest at that point and 495 ft elevation from the 135 ft at my barracks. I think I got a bus to the Gate. Then a couple of miles to 20 before I decided to get back. Dark and lonely is no way to be hiking without gear.

The Sierras can get more forested, less populated, and because temperature drops 2F for every 1000 ft up, very cold.
50 miles is not much of driving distance, but that's how far it takes to get to 5000.

Anyhow, that's where I was. To the left Kansas flat farmland, to the right, increasingly dense forest.

I hope that somewhat clears it up.

 

[EnolaGaia]

I found this site:

http://keddie28.com/gal/Case Files/News Clippings/Forcino Five/index.html

... which provides images of multiple newspaper clippings from (mainly local) newspapers from the time of the guys' disappearance through the time following their discovery.

These clippings cite some distance / etc. specifications that don't exactly align with the figures given in later (recycled) accounts of the incident.

 

[EnolaGaia]

One thing I finally determined from this latest batch of clippings (post 107) is the location of the cabin-trailer or 'bunkhouse trailer' at which Weiher's body was found.

The site was / is known as the Daniel Zink Campground.

This site is at an elevation of approximately 5000 ft. This TopoQuest URL:

https://www.topoquest.com/map.php?l...83&zoom=4&map=auto&coord=d&mode=zoomin&size=m

... provides a topo map with the Deniel Zink Campground centered in the image. NOTE: The center of the image is not indicated by the grid lines within the image.

As it turns out, the Daniel Zink Campground is not located directly upon the main road the guys had been traveling (the Oroville - Quincy Highway). It's off in the forest, accessed via 4WD tracks.

IMHO this further reinforces the idea the guys were slavishly following the Sno-Cat tracks from the place they abandoned their car (as opposed to following the path of the main road, if it were even discernible at the time).

 

[EnolaGaia]

Among the latest set of clippings I cited above (post 107) I ran across something that helps to explain some of the mystery concerning why searchers didn't check the bunkhouse / Daniel Zink Campground angle earlier ...

In this local newspaper item from June 5:

keddie28.com/gal/Case Files/News Clippings/Forcino Five/slides/780605 5_missing_pt_1_Marysville_AD.html
Link is dead. The Keddie28 website apparently no longer maintains these documents.
Archived image of the MIA webpage is attached to this post.

... it states:

"Authorities in Yuba, Butte, and Plumas counties had been unaware the Forest Service kept the bunkhouse in the Deniel Zink Campground during the winter, and deep snow prevented access to the campground until recently."

In another news item from 4 days later (June 9):

keddie28.com/gal/Case Files/News Clippings/Forcino Five/slides/780609 5_missing_Marysville_AD.html
Link is dead. The Keddie28 website apparently no longer maintains these documents.
Archived image of the MIA webpage is attached to this post.

... the Forest Service claimed they'd advised the sheriff's department(s) about the bunkhouse.

Regardless of the source / blame for this confusion, it explains why no one made an effort to check the remote bunkhouse winter site. It also provides a clue as to why the authorities may have wanted the story to fade away as quickly as possible.

In any case, confusion and bad timing (finding the car no more than a day before the big blizzard hit) contributed to the failure to find the guys in time to possibly have saved one or more of them. I believe that much can safely be said ...

 

[maximus otter]

...C-ration cans (which contained multiple subsidiary packages / items) were emptied. I'd been wondering whether the C-rations had been completely consumed.

I did a little digging and found that the “C-rations” referred to were probably the Meal, Combat, Individual issued between 1958 and 1980.

maximus otter

 

[EnolaGaia]

I did a little digging and found that the “C-rations” referred to were probably the Meal, Combat, Individual issued between 1958 and 1980.

Yep - the later MCI meal kits used the same packaging format (a can with packaged contents), and they were commonly referred to using the older and well-established 'C rations' label.

 

[CuriousIdent]

RE: The Forbestown connection ...



The authorities checked with a single person known to have been acquainted with Mathias, who told them he hadn't seen Gary in over a year. It would have appeared to be a dead end line of inquiry - checked and checked off. However ...

The bit that's new to me is that Forbestown was reputed to be a haven for young folks who wanted to 'drop out'.

That sort of late 1970's community was usually a quiet nexus for drug-related activities. Mathias' discharge from the Army wasn't solely because of his schizophrenia; there were unspecified issues relating to drug use. Mathias had been living at his family home and working for his stepfather (the seemingly grumpy / pessimistic Mr. Klopf) for at least two solid years. Getting to Forbestown is the only substantive explanation for why the 'boys' drove eastward from Oroville that Friday night, onto the very road where the car would get stuck.

Here are two (admittedly wildly speculative) scenarios that come to mind:

Mathias convinced Madruga to make a side trip to the Forbestown area either:

(a) to obtain some drugs OR
(b) to drop off Mathias, who'd quietly planned to 'drop out' and was using the Chico trip as a cover for his getaway.

The 'deliver Mathias' (b) version could go something like this:

- Mathias announces he's leaving and directs the group to take him to Forbestown.
- They part company, with Mathias convincing Weiher to swap shoes with him (Mathias is heading to parts unknown and could really use the boots; Weiher can wear Mathias' sneakers the rest of the way home, because they're not up in the mountains with deep snow all around).
- The four remaining Gateway Gators head back from Forbestown, Madruga makes a wrong turn (right rather than left) onto the very road the car would be found on, and they drive off toward disaster.
- The four die. Mathias' body is never found, because Mathias wasn't with them on the last leg of their doomed trip.

Thank you for going into detail with something which I've been struggling to articulate concisely. While I still think it's the more unlikely option, I don't think we can write-off the possibility.

If (and it remains an if) there was a second car involved up on that road, it could also have been some kind of prearranged meeting for a drug deal or similar. Something which perhaps Mathias only mentioned to the others after the game.

'Before we go back I kinda arranged to meet a friend of mine. It's a bit out of the way, but would you mind?'

Given that we now have a certain reputation for the area, it's not implausible that Mathias friend in Forbestown may have been involved with that kind of scene. Heck, if Mathias *had* a problem which may have contributed to his Army discharge it may well be how he came to know this guy in the first place. And if anything had gone down that night, and gone wrong, he would hardly be likely to say that he'd seen the guy in months.

'Not seen him in a year or more' could sound a lot like a panicked overstatement if that was the subtext behind it.

If Forbestown was the kind of place you went to get hold of the stuff you needed to sate a drug habit it could skew a very different story. And if Mathias were taking recreational drugs again there's not telling if they interacted with his prescribed medication, of course.

All speculation though. Not accusation.

 

[EnolaGaia]

Thank you for going into detail with something which I've been struggling to articulate concisely. While I still think it's the more unlikely option, I don't think we can write-off the possibility. ...

If there had been one of the 'boys' who had an individual agenda that night, it almost certainly had to be Mathias.

Just so we're clear ... The two scenarios I mentioned were merely illustrations. The second one I elaborated in more detail was offered to illustrate a relatively benign series of events that touched on all the paradoxical aspects of the evidence (including the inability to locate Mathias' remains).

The trickiest bit to explain was how Mathias' tennis shoes ended up on Weiher's feet.

Once you can cover that pesky point, eliminating Mathias from the set of doomed people stranded up in the mountains greatly simplifies the whole puzzle.

 

[EnolaGaia]

There's another point I ran across that supports a Mathias-had-his-own-agenda angle ...

In one of the most recent news items I cited earlier (I forget which one ... ) it was stated that it wasn't unusual for Mathias to stay out all night. No such statement was made about the other four, and I doubt any of those other four ever stayed out all night on their own.

This raises the possibility that Mathias' life encompassed a side nobody knew about. It also meant his own family wouldn't have immediately worried about him not coming home that night - thus affording him time to get a head start. That's why I focused on the 'escape' version of the Mathias-had-his-own-agenda angle.

 

[CuriousIdent]

If there had been one of the 'boys' who had an individual agenda that night, it almost certainly had to be Mathias.

Just so we're clear ... The two scenarios I mentioned were merely illustrations. The second one I elaborated in more detail was offered to illustrate a relatively benign series of events that touched on all the paradoxical aspects of the evidence (including the inability to locate Mathias' remains).

The trickiest bit to explain was how Mathias' tennis shoes ended up on Weiher's feet.

Once you can cover that pesky point, eliminating Mathias from the set of doomed people stranded up in the mountains greatly simplifies the whole puzzle.

Agreed. It is all speculation, of course. I'm not suggesting any of this as a genuine explanation. There is no evidence to support it.

The exchange of footwear seems to have been speculated because of swelling from frostbite on Weiher's feet, and Mathias having had the largest size shoes is assumed to have swapped them. That follow up piece also mentions that Weiher's body showed gangrene in his feet, presumably because of the same frostbite.

Am I right in thinking that some seem to believe that Weiher, as he was found, would likely not have been able to tuck himself into the bunk (wrapped in the blanket he was found in) on his own? It would seem far more likely if that was the case that Mathias changed footwear with him in that cabin and maybe even stayed with him until he died. After which he must have left, never to be seen again.

 

[CuriousIdent]

There's another point I ran across that supports a Mathias-had-his-own-agenda angle ...

In one of the most recent news items I cited earlier (I forget which one ... ) it was stated that it wasn't unusual for Mathias to stay out all night. No such statement was made about the other four, and I doubt any of those other four ever stayed out all night on their own.

This raises the possibility that Mathias' life encompassed a side nobody knew about. It also meant his own family wouldn't have immediately worried about him not coming home that night - thus affording him time to get a head start. That's why I focused on the 'escape' version of the Mathias-had-his-own-agenda angle.

Agreed. If any of the five had a side to there life which the families of the victims did not know about? It was him. Which would also plausibly tie in with behavior patterns of recreational drug use (if that was part of why he was dismissed from the army, the two could be related).

I suppose if we really let our minds run wild here 'staying out all night' might equate to spending the night with an unknown party.

Schors claimed to have seen the silhouette of a woman with a child. Is it implausible that Mathias could have... knocked somebody up, who his family simply weren't aware of?

 

[henry]

If there had been one of the 'boys' who had an individual agenda that night, it almost certainly had to be Mathias.

this was the point i found myself at on this case, based on a bunch of youtubes i watched when this was originally posted ... when this thread didnt follow the same direction i figured my predisposition to ulterior motives had got the better of me

 

[EnolaGaia]

... The exchange of footwear seems to have been speculated because of swelling from frostbite on Weiher's feet, and Mathias having had the largest size shoes is assumed to have swapped them. That follow up piece also mentions that Weiher's body showed gangrene in his feet, presumably because of the same frostbite. ...

To the extent any of the accounts explicitly addressed the shoe swap, I got the impression it was the other way around ...

Weiher was comparatively taller and beefy; Mathias was comparatively shorter and thinner. At least one of the accounts I read stated the theory was that Mathias was similarly affected by frostbite, and he'd swapped his tennis shoes for Weiher's boots because his own (smaller) feet were swollen.

If Mathias were with Weiher and attempted a break-out it would seem far more likely he wanted Weiher's boots simply because they were boots - footwear much better suited for a daunting hike through deep drifted snow.