Ultra-Orthodox Jews

Jim

Abominable Snowman
Joined
Jan 19, 2016
Messages
983
Likes
1,008
Points
134
Location
NYS, USA
#61
I'd love to sit next to some "nice" lady. This doesn't necessary mean were headed for sex.
 
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
5,832
Likes
4,465
Points
244
#62
These guys should have been thrown off the plane.

A leading Israeli tech company has stopped flying with the national carrier El Al after the airline moved women from their seats because ultra-Orthodox passengers refused to sit next to them...
I've witnessed Orthodox Jewish men moving seats on the London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly line on two or three occasions - I strongly suspect for the reason that gentile women sat down next to them. I suppose in some cases there could have been other explanations - but there was nothing obvious to me as an observer other than that a woman had chosen to sit next to them. And the reaction was almost instantaneous - as if the seat had suddenly got unbearably hot.

On one occasion the guy in question, who actually seemed quite angry, moved into a seat next to another Orthodox male, and loud-whispered 'shikse', presumably by way of explanation - which pretty much clinches it in his case.

But, you know - as long as it's the person with the supposed issue doing the moving, rather than demanding that someone else does - then...whatever!
 
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Messages
49,302
Likes
21,715
Points
284
Location
Eblana
#63
I've witnessed Orthodox Jewish men moving seats on the London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly line on two or three occasions - I strongly suspect for the reason that gentile women sat down next to them. I suppose in some cases there could have been other explanations - but there was nothing obvious to me as an observer other than that a woman had chosen to sit next to them. And the reaction was almost instantaneous - as if the seat had suddenly got unbearably hot.

On one occasion the guy in question, who actually seemed quite angry, moved into a seat next to another Orthodox male, and loud-whispered 'shikse', presumably by way of explanation - which pretty much clinches it in his case.

But, you know - as long as it's the person with the supposed issue doing the moving, rather than demanding that someone else does - then...whatever!
Muslims who refused to sit next to women wouldn't be indulged and neither should UOJs.
 

James_H

And I like to roam the land
Joined
May 18, 2002
Messages
7,217
Likes
5,030
Points
309
#66
An interesting story about eruvin. What is an eruv? It's a boundary made of string that officially makes an area of the city into a 'private space', so that orthodox jews can do things on Saturday that they're only allowed to do in private, like carrying objects.

Which is a kind of impressively high-effort way to follow the letter of the law, and not the spirit of it.

:atom:

https://nypost.com/2015/05/24/high-wire-strewn-through-city-lets-jews-keep-the-faith/

 
Last edited:

amyasleigh

Abominable Snowman
Joined
Nov 3, 2009
Messages
848
Likes
339
Points
69
#67
Which is a kind of impressively high-effort way to follow the letter of the law, and not the spirit of it.
Though I'm not Jewish; I feel inclined to make some defence of such practices as eruvim -- even super-elaborate examples such as this one taking up a large chunk of Manhattan -- because as I understand things, the matter of the letter, versus the spirit, of the law: is a Christian concept, and not a Jewish one. For Orthodox Jews, the letter of the law is its spirit: God's greatest requirement of all for them, is that they follow the Law which He has laid down for them. This does not by any means forbid or bring to nothing, "rules-lawyering" and ingenious finagling to ease compliance with the law / adapt it to modern conditions and inventions: God is reckoned to be happy with His chosen people doing just this -- He gave humans a brain, so that they might use it.

Jews are the first to admit that they love arguing and disputing, and do a great deal of it. The linked-to article mentions dissentient voices among the Jewish community, about the exercise concerned -- as with Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, who way back when this scheme was first promulgated: considered that the idea of a Manhattan-wide eruv, was taking the piss, and forthrightly said so -- the perimeter was thus adjusted, so as not to include his dwelling (as was his wish, I gather).
 

maximus otter

Recovering policeman
Joined
Aug 9, 2001
Messages
5,272
Likes
9,856
Points
309
#68
...orthodox jews can do things on Saturday...a kind of impressively high-effort way to follow the letter of the law, and not the spirit of it...
I remember reading and being entertained by an article about the lengths Jews had to go to in, for example, hospitals. Jewish law apparently forbids the observant from lighting fires on the sabbath. This has been interpreted to include turning on any electrical device. Obviously this would be an issue in a hospital, so they invented a switch that is, in effect, two switches: IIRC one presses the button, but this doesn’t complete the circuit, turning on the machine; instead it starts a small mechanical delay timer which, after a fraction of a second’s delay, then starts the power flowing.

As an atheist, my opinion is divided 50:50 between “How splendidly inventive!” and “Oh FFS...”.

maximus otter
 
Last edited:

JamesWhitehead

Piffle Prospector
Joined
Aug 2, 2001
Messages
12,609
Likes
10,140
Points
309
#69
Jewish law apparently forbids the observant from lighting fires on the sabbath.
I have a local history publication somewhere in which a woman recalls how she could earn a penny from local Jews for lighting their fire on the Sabbath. This was in Middleton. I understand that slow-cookers and other timed devices have removed this little earner! :(
 

James_H

And I like to roam the land
Joined
May 18, 2002
Messages
7,217
Likes
5,030
Points
309
#71
Though I'm not Jewish; I feel inclined to make some defence of such practices as eruvim -- even super-elaborate examples such as this one taking up a large chunk of Manhattan -- because as I understand things, the matter of the letter, versus the spirit, of the law: is a Christian concept, and not a Jewish one. For Orthodox Jews, the letter of the law is its spirit: God's greatest requirement of all for them, is that they follow the Law which He has laid down for them. This does not by any means forbid or bring to nothing, "rules-lawyering" and ingenious finagling to ease compliance with the law / adapt it to modern conditions and inventions: God is reckoned to be happy with His chosen people doing just this -- He gave humans a brain, so that they might use it.

Jews are the first to admit that they love arguing and disputing, and do a great deal of it. The linked-to article mentions dissentient voices among the Jewish community, about the exercise concerned -- as with Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, who way back when this scheme was first promulgated: considered that the idea of a Manhattan-wide eruv, was taking the piss, and forthrightly said so -- the perimeter was thus adjusted, so as not to include his dwelling (as was his wish, I gather).
Amyasleigh, you're right of course. What seems from the outside like ridiculous loophole-exploitation looks different if you assume that there can only be a loophole if God put it there, and since He did, you're obviously supposed to use it.
 

amyasleigh

Abominable Snowman
Joined
Nov 3, 2009
Messages
848
Likes
339
Points
69
#72
Non-Jewish people can come in handy on the Sabbath. There's still money to be made! :cool:
Ah, yes, the institution of the "Shabbes goy" (Sabbath Gentile). As mentioned, Jews revel in disputing and discussing and generally minutely taking things apart: I gather that some Orthodox in good standing, hold that it's ethically wrong to employ a Gentile to do Sabbath stuff which a Jew may not. As the rabbis are fond of saying, "this needs further study"...
 

amyasleigh

Abominable Snowman
Joined
Nov 3, 2009
Messages
848
Likes
339
Points
69
#73
Amyasleigh, you're right of course. What seems from the outside like ridiculous loophole-exploitation looks different if you assume that there can only be a loophole if God put it there, and since He did, you're obviously supposed to use it.
Without wanting to come across as condescending: I like this whole aspect of the Jewish faith -- in part because of its entertainment-value for those outside said faith (also, one suspects, to quite some extent for those within it). I recall a comment on another board, from a non-Jewish atheist, about the Sabbath-finagling stuff as a whole: "It's all batshit crazy; but there's something kind of elegant about it".
 

James_H

And I like to roam the land
Joined
May 18, 2002
Messages
7,217
Likes
5,030
Points
309
#74
Ah, yes, the institution of the "Shabbes goy" (Sabbath Gentile). As mentioned, Jews revel in disputing and discussing and generally minutely taking things apart: I gather that some Orthodox in good standing, hold that it's ethically wrong to employ a Gentile to do Sabbath stuff which a Jew may not. As the rabbis are fond of saying, "this needs further study"...
Reminds me of a joke:

Two middle-aged men, Shmuel and Aaron, are learning together in the Beis Midrash. When they come to a break, Shmuel says:

“You know, my daughter is getting married next month. We’ve been learning together for years, and so I’d like to honor you with being one of the witnesses at the ceremony.”

At this, Aaron looks a little embarrased and says: “I’m sorry to do this to you, Shumuel, but, well, I’m afraid I have to turn you down. You see, well, I’m actually not Jewish can can’t serve as a witness.”

“What do you mean you’re not Jewish?” asks Shmuel. “We’ve been learning together for years. How can it be that you’re not Jewish?”

“Well,” answers Aaron, “I’ve always found the learning to be a great intellectual exercise. And, of course, I also like spending time with you. But, in the end, I’m still not Jewish.”

“But hold on,” Shumuel protested. “I’ve seen you keep Shabbos. You know that a non-Jew isn’t allowed to keep Shabbos.”

“Ah,” replied Aaron serenly, “you only *thought* you saw me keep Shabbos. The truth of the matter is that I always kept a key in my pocket when I walked outside. This way I always carried on Shabbos.”

“But there’s an eruv!” said Shmuel.

“Yes,” countered Aaron, “but I don’t hold of the eruv.”
 
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
5,832
Likes
4,465
Points
244
#76
I remember reading and being entertained by an article about the lengths Jews had to go to in, for example, hospitals. Jewish law apparently forbids the observant from lighting fires on the sabbath. This has been interpreted to include turning on any electrical device. Obviously this would be an issue in a hospital, so they invented a switch that is, in effect, two switches: IIRC one presses the button, but this doesn’t complete the circuit, turning on the machine; it starts a small mechanical delay timer which, after a fraction of a second’s delay, then starts the power flowing...
I mentioned switch protectors on page one of this thread. (Although, if you're after acquiring some of these very useful domestic accessories, I’m afraid that the link is now broken.) Basically, you switch the lights on before the sabbath starts, then cover the switches to stop yourself automatically turning them off (which would leave you with the problem of how to turn them on again without being put on a list).

...As an atheist, my opinion is divided 50:50 between “How splendidly inventive!” and “Oh FFS...”.
I find myself experiencing more or less the same conflict. But, besides which, I would have thought that Hashem had much more pressing things to do. I can't help thinking - with all the shit that's going on in the world - that prying into the minor domestic habits of your followers is the Godlike equivalent of tidying your desk instead of doing your homework. Rather than loitering around the landings and sitting rooms of those nice people in Stamford hill and Prestwich - like some all-powerful but distinctly unambitious stalker - perhaps He wouldn’t mind having a go at sorting the fuck out of Syria.
 

amyasleigh

Abominable Snowman
Joined
Nov 3, 2009
Messages
848
Likes
339
Points
69
#77
I find myself experiencing more or less the same conflict. But, besides which, I would have thought that Hashem had much more pressing things to do. I can't help thinking - with all the shit that's going on in the world - that prying into the minor domestic habits of your followers is the Godlike equivalent of tidying your desk instead of doing your homework. Rather than loitering around the landings and sitting rooms of those nice people in Stamford hill and Prestwich - like some all-powerful but distinctly unambitious stalker - perhaps He wouldn’t mind having a go at sorting the fuck out of Syria.
" 'For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways', declares the Lord." (Isaiah 55:8)
 

Victory

Ephemeral Spectre
Joined
Jan 15, 2017
Messages
386
Likes
709
Points
94
Location
London
#78
Whatever the deal, it's still rude behaviour.
It is only rude if done in a rude way, and I have not experienced it being done in a rude way.
The reasons for moving seat are genuine and because the men in question wish to safeguard a level of holiness they have taken upon themselves...not just sitting next to women, but they would also avoid looking at scantily clad women or even listening to women singing.
This is done to honour their wife, they do not want any kind of temptation from a woman other than their wife.
It is also because they in general have been raised in an environment where they are much more sensitive to provocation than most on this forum...for example they are not accustomed to seeing images of women in bikinis..images that secular men would barely notice...but to these more religious men these images can disturb them.
I have moved seats a few times on El Al flights to help out these men, it really is no trouble.
A simple request, pickup my newspaper, and move to the row behind.
It is only a problem when people try to make a problem of it.
 

hunck

Justified & Ancient
Joined
Jul 13, 2011
Messages
4,427
Likes
5,361
Points
209
Location
Hobbs End
#79
It is only rude if done in a rude way, and I have not experienced it being done in a rude way.
The reasons for moving seat are genuine and because the men in question wish to safeguard a level of holiness they have taken upon themselves...not just sitting next to women, but they would also avoid looking at scantily clad women or even listening to women singing.
This is done to honour their wife, they do not want any kind of temptation from a woman other than their wife.
It is also because they in general have been raised in an environment where they are much more sensitive to provocation than most on this forum...for example they are not accustomed to seeing images of women in bikinis..images that secular men would barely notice...but to these more religious men these images can disturb them.
I have moved seats a few times on El Al flights to help out these men, it really is no trouble.
A simple request, pickup my newspaper, and move to the row behind.
It is only a problem when people try to make a problem of it.
Jeez - not sitting next to a woman? Talk about making your life difficult. I doubt they would be confronted with scantily clad women or women singing on a plane either. Or women in bikinis come to that. Maybe I've not been on the right flights.

I seem to remember a fairly recent story about some orthodox Jews on a flight being sealed in bags because they were flying over something they didn't like for some reason. Maybe that's the answer.
 
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Messages
49,302
Likes
21,715
Points
284
Location
Eblana
#80
Pretty extreme sect.

Four members of a Jewish sect have been charged with kidnapping a young brother and sister in New York state.

Prosecutors say the men belong to the ultra-Orthodox Lev Tahor group, which is based in Guatemala. They are accused of abducting a 14-year-old girl and her 12-year-old brother from the village of Woodridge, which is north of New York City. The men planned to take the pair back to Guatemala after their mother fled the sect six weeks earlier. The woman had reportedly feared for her children's safety and felt the group, which was founded by her father, was becoming more extreme under the leadership of her brother. Its teachings reportedly include that women must be veiled from head to toe in black tunics.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46708691
 

Lb8535

Abominable Snowman
Joined
Sep 2, 2015
Messages
549
Likes
1,047
Points
134
Location
EST
#84
Yep, that’s unparalleled extremism.

;)

maximus otter
Every religion that I've run across has some requirement in their extremist branch for women to be hidden, physically or socially. Sometimes they have to hide during their periods or after childbirth. It's not related to the religion, the bible doesn't mention a lot of what the ultra-orthodox do, it's based on later writing by commentators. It's related to people who have a disabling need to control women all gravitating to a cultural pocket that gives them the power to make rules. I'm continually astounded that otherwise intelligent and competent women go along with it if they have a choice. Would love the opportunity to talk to some without appearing to attack their beliefs.
 

Victory

Ephemeral Spectre
Joined
Jan 15, 2017
Messages
386
Likes
709
Points
94
Location
London
#85
This Lev Tahor sect is not practicing Judaism in a conventional way.

The head-to-toe covering for women is actually against Jewish teachings and is too extreme.

There are whole books on this subject, called in Hebrew "Tzniut", which basically means "Modesty".
Whilst traditional Jewish female clothing may seem quite restrictive by mainstream Western standards (i.e. skirts which are ankle length and long sleeve tops), face veils are not required and are actually seen as an ego trip...whereby someone is trying to be "Holier than thou".

There do exist a few very pious holy men and Kabbalists who avoid looking at any women other than their wives, but these are a special case.

The Lev Tahor sect will have amongst it some genuine but misguided people, and some innocent children, but is also a cover for criminals who are on the run.
 
Last edited:

Min Bannister

Justified & Ancient
Joined
Sep 5, 2003
Messages
3,835
Likes
3,876
Points
184
#86
I just read of an interesting (though sad) fact about Ultra-Orthodox Jews in a book about anxiety. They are much more likely to suffer from OCD than the general population, it is thought because of the huge list of prescriptions for everything they do leading to anxiety over whether they have done them all correctly.
 

Lb8535

Abominable Snowman
Joined
Sep 2, 2015
Messages
549
Likes
1,047
Points
134
Location
EST
#87
And possibly those who do suffer from OCD are more likely to find or stay within the ultra-orthodox community.
 
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Messages
49,302
Likes
21,715
Points
284
Location
Eblana
#89
Liberal Jewish Women attacked by ultra-Orthodox Jews.

Thousands of young ultra-Orthodox Jews have clashed with a liberal Jewish women's group at one of Judaism's holiest sites, the Western Wall, in Jerusalem.

Dozens of members of the Women of the Wall group, who are seeking equal prayer rights, had to be escorted away by police. Protesters, many of them women, responded to calls from ultra-Orthodox rabbis to disrupt the group's 30th anniversary service, media reports say. A number of people were reportedly injured in the incident.

The Western Wall in Jerusalem's Old City - a relic of the Biblical Temple compound - currently has separate sections where men and women are allowed to pray.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-47496456
 
Top