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Novichok In Salisbury: Secret Agents & Nerve Agents In Britain

It doesn't appear to be an April Fool story but who can tell..also doesn't mention ergot.
 
Cochise said:
Well, its turncoat spies, anyway. If it was murdering random members of the population like a certain religion then I could see why we'd be upset. If there is all this convincing evidence, why not at least attempt to tell us about it? Even the liar-in-chief had a dossier. To be honest, it all seems a bit clumsy for the Russians. And I find the response, even if the allegations are true, highly hypocritical.
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You are making the mistake of assuming that Russian operations are subtle. They aren't. Brute force is often useful to send a message and promote fear, and the Russians are all too aware of that.
 
Cavynaut said:
I was joking about the ergot. Sorry ! :)
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OK - I see ... I was wondering how ergot surfaced in relation to this story. However ...

Joke or not, you're not the only one who's suggested ergot contamination in the imported porridge might have been the cause. I've found other such suggestions in recent postings elsewhere on the 'Net.

I'm not sure how crude (i.e., broadly-scoped) an analysis would have to be to accommodate either Novichok or ergot as possible causes.

Another point would be that if the porridge were processed / pre-packaged one would reasonably expect there'd been additional recent ergot poisonings back in Russia.
 
EnolaGaia said:
OK - I see ...
Another point would be that if the porridge were processed / pre-packaged one would reasonably expect there'd been additional recent ergot poisonings back in Russia.
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Yeah, I looked for ergot poisonings as well. Russia does seem to be susceptible, but the last reference I can find dates from 2001. I can't post reference as I'm on a Kindle Fire (and I'm a committed technophobe).

Still, it's an interesting counter argument. Not one any of us would ever hear about though.
 
Mythopoeika said:
Kinda odd that the daughter would ask a friend to bring over foodstuffs that are readily obtainable over here.
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I think there is some lazy translation going on here - by "porridge" they almost certainly mean kasha - which is a word applied to a variety of preparations based around grains, oatmeal being just one of many. The Mail article does mention buckwheat - this can be found in the UK, but it does take some searching for (I'm partial to it myself, and only really remember finding it in some health-food stores). So, from that point of view, it's perhaps more understandable that they might ask an acquaintance to bring some back.
 
AlchoPwn said:
You are making the mistake of assuming that Russian operations are subtle. They aren't. Brute force is often useful to send a message and promote fear, and the Russians are all too aware of that.
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And the West are so different? How many Middle Eastern countries have we bombed?
 
Cochise said:
And the West are so different? How many Middle Eastern countries have we bombed?
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I think Putin is corrupt and a thug but unlike Trump he is an efficient capable thug. It's worth remembering that if it wasn't for Putin, Syria would now be ruled by Islamists. France, US, UK are still supporting "moderate" islamists in Syria.
 
Hmm...Porton Down are unable to state that this particular brand of nerve agent came from Russia. And yet the government said that it was Russian "beyond doubt".

Which experts should we trust?
 
Cavynaut said:
Hmm...Porton Down are unable to state that this particular brand of nerve agent came from Russia. And yet the government said that it was Russian "beyond doubt".

Which experts should we trust?
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Where did you hear this?
 
On the lighter side, it's mildly entertaining to hear Porton Down described as a 'secret laboratory' when the papers can't stop talking about it and are even running pictures of it :sherlock:
 
Cochise said:
And the West are so different? How many Middle Eastern countries have we bombed?
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You are comparing apples and oranges. We are talking about espionage and covert murder using nerve gas. This has nothing to do with military intervention and I personally think we don't bomb the Middle East enough given the insanely inhuman and vicious history of Islam. I make no apologies for this opinion as I have taken the time to become well informed on the matter, and I can say with certainty that the worst genocides in human history are all Islamic in origin, including US slavery and the Spanish genocides in the New World.

As to Putin's motive, perhaps it relates to Churchill's 1919 chemical weapons attack on the Bolsheviks?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/s...nston-churchill-shocking-use-chemical-weapons
I doubt that is the motive of course.

After that, the Geneva convention banned gas weapons. That was a ban that even Hitler didn't break. The first break was Saddam Hussein during the Iran-Iraq war, and subsequently against the Kurds. During the occupation of Iraq post 2003, the only WMD discovered was a mustard gas shell that had been mistakenly turned into a roadside IED. Since then the Asshat regime in Syria has repeatedly used chemical weapons against their enemies, and now the Putin regime has used a chemical weapon as an assassination tool in the UK.
 
Cochise said:
https://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/sa...can-t-verify-nerve-agent-is-russian-1-4718043

Other references are available :)
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Thanks Cochise, that sheds some light. Here is what the Porton Down boss is quoted as saying.

Asked about his scientists’ findings, Mr Aitkenhead told Sky: “We in terms of our role were able to identify it as Novichok, to identify it was a military-grade nerve agent. “We have not verified the precise source, but we have provided the scientific information to the Government, who have then used a number of other sources to piece together the conclusions that they have come to.” The location of manufacture “can be established through a number of different input sources which the Government has access to”, he said, adding: “From our perspective, scientific evidence is only one of those sources, and it requires a number of other things to verify that. “It’s a military grade nerve agent which requires extremely sophisticated methods in order to create - something that’s probably only within the capabilities of a state actor.”
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Cavynaut said:
Hmm...Porton Down are unable to state that this particular brand of nerve agent came from Russia. And yet the government said that it was Russian "beyond doubt".

Which experts should we trust?
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With respect, you're putting a rather bizarre spin on the Porton Down statement.
Their remit always was to identify the nerve agent itself - which they did as the Soviet product Novichok.
Porton Down was never tasked with identifying the perpetrator of the attack, hence your "Hmm..." (presumably with conspiratorial overtones) is misplaced.
 
Min Bannister said:
Thanks Cochise, that sheds some light. Here is what the Porton Down boss is quoted as saying.
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My suspicion is that its not Putin himself behind this.

The daughter accessed a secret bank account in Russia shortly before the attack. In doing so she has maybe trod on the toes of one of the Russian 'mafias' - who almost certainly could lay their hands on anything they wanted, the corruption in Russia being so endemic.

The hue and cry against Russia overlooks -as many other claims against Russia in the last few years - that it is no longer a state on Western lines. It is not, it is more akin to a group of city states with on the one hand vestiges of the Communist federal structure and on the other land many criminal or semi criminal organisations that are out of control of the Government. And the US is somewhat to blame for this, because the rush by multinationals - mainly US companies such as Citibank - to grab all they could, and then subsequently withdraw when the found the Russians did not at all behave like a defeated enemy, has done tremendous damage.
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
With respect, you're putting a rather bizarre spin on the Porton Down statement.
Their remit always was to identify the nerve agent itself - which they did as the Soviet product Novichok.
Porton Down was never tasked with identifying the perpetrator of the attack, hence your "Hmm..." (presumably with conspiratorial overtones) is misplaced.
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Except that its also pointed out other states could produce it. Its apparently not something particularly new or unique, and the required chemicals to make it are not restricted.

Not that I think it is a state operation. Putin would be nuts to stage such an attack just before the World Cup.

Still no smoking gun - do we really want to risk WW3 based on supposition?

BTW Soviet? Really? Then its at least 30 years old...
 
Cochise said:
Putin would be nuts to stage such an attack just before the World Cup.

Still no smoking gun - do we really want to risk WW3 based on supposition?
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Why would he be nuts to? What's happened as a consequence? And who else has a motive to kill with a russian product a russian double agent living in britain? And imagining someone other than russia having such a motive, is this mysterious other someone also behind Litvinenko and polonium? The poisoning of the former Ukriainian presisdent several years ago? The apparent large numbers of suspicious deaths of anti-putin oligarchs and exiles? The Welsh perhaps. Or Putin's ex wife trying to show him up.

But since "anyone but who it appears to be and for the obvious motive" conspiracy theories are de rigeur these days, they're easy to add to. I can make one up, lets see how far it spreads. A handy little crisis allows Trump to expel some russian diplomats and declare himself tough for doing so while continuing to cosy up to Putin, almost as if his kremlin paymaster has done him a favour to help ease the suspicions around him. Is that true? Probably not but it sounds good and is full of secret motive and hidden layers. I think its a goer. :)
 
Cochise said:
Putin would be nuts to stage such an attack just before the World Cup.
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Or...
That's exactly why he would do it, because "nuts to do it before World Cup" give deniability, eg 'why would I do that, we have the World Cup coming up?'. Other ex-spies still get the message.

Meanwhile....

2b7.jpg
 
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kamalktk said:
Or...
That's exactly why he would do it, because "nuts to do it before World Cup" give deniability, eg 'why would I do that, we have the World Cup coming up?'. Other ex-spies still get the message.
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Plus any country pulling its team out of The World Cup is going to be enormously unpopular with their local population.
 
Dr_Baltar said:
I think it sounds like a synthetic chocolate substitute from A Clockwork Orange.
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Burgess of course based a lot of his nadsat slang on Russian words, including nadsat - the Russian suffix for -teen. I'm still bitter all these years later that my English teacher at school would not accept the obvious derivation of horrorshow from хорошо...
 
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