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Novichok In Salisbury: Secret Agents & Nerve Agents In Britain

 
hunck said:
That's a post from the Russian embassy. What else do you expect them to say other than to deny it? So according to them the polonium was already here & nothing to do with Lugovoi & Kovtun.

The only thing contradicting this is the sheer amount of polonium traces they left on their travels. In their hotel room, the hotel they poisoned Litvinenko in, the seats in the Arsenal stadium where they watched a game, & the plane seats on their journey back to Russia amongst others.

It seems you're prepared to overlook this purely circumstantial evidence.
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Of course, the Rusians are pushing here their side of the story. But what matters is what the evidence says. There is plenty indeed to support the British government's version, but Russian officials have always claimed that it was planted or made-up by British intelligence to frame Lugovoi (something they had the means to do). Which they would say whether it is true or not. Here, they claim to come with new evidence that could tip the scales in their favor. The German judiciary documents they reproduce (as far as I know, the Germans have not contested them) do appear to show that the polonium was already present before Litvinenko's meeting with Lugovoi and Kotvun : Traces of the radionuclide were found in Berezovsky's London office and in the organism of Italian national Mario Scramella, whom Litvinenko had met in London on 1 November 2006 prior to his meeting with Lugovoi and Kovtun.
As a result,in view of the above, the Hamburg Prosecutor's Office by its decision of 6 November 2009 discontinued the proceedings in this matter pursuant to p. 2 para. 170 of the Criminal Procedure Code of the Federal Republic of Germany for lack of grounds for the accusation.
As almost everybody, I believed then the conclusions of British investigators. But if this document is true (and we have seen no reason to believe that it is not), then the views usually shared about Litvinenko's death should be reconsidered.

hunck said:
As to this poor man Terluk, "a stateless person originating from Kazakhstan who had resided with his family in the United Kingdom since 1999" who subsequently had his car stolen, I have no idea what he's got to do either with poisoning Litvinenko or the Skripals.
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He has nothing to do with, but with the alledgedly false assassination attempt on Beresovsky. The point being that the British government misled the public in both this case and relating to Litvinenko's death. Using similar methods to their accusations against Russia on the Skripals' poisoning.
The latter seemed indeed from the start much more dubious than Russian guilt in the poisoning of Litvinenko. And if even this instance falls, as it is widely used by British officials and media to show that it is a Russian habit to conduct such operations in foreign countries, nothing will remain to their claims.
 
Analis said:
Of course, the Rusians are pushing here their side of the story. But what matters is what the evidence says. There is plenty indeed to support the British government's version, but Russian officials have always claimed that it was planted or made-up by British intelligence to frame Lugovoi (something they had the means to do). Which they would say whether it is true or not. Here, they claim to come with new evidence that could tip the scales in their favor. The German judiciary documents they reproduce (as far as I know, the Germans have not contested them) do appear to show that the polonium was already present before Litvinenko's meeting with Lugovoi and Kotvun : Traces of the radionuclide were found in Berezovsky's London office and in the organism of Italian national Mario Scramella, whom Litvinenko had met in London on 1 November 2006 prior to his meeting with Lugovoi and Kovtun.
As a result,in view of the above, the Hamburg Prosecutor's Office by its decision of 6 November 2009 discontinued the proceedings in this matter pursuant to p. 2 para. 170 of the Criminal Procedure Code of the Federal Republic of Germany for lack of grounds for the accusation.
As almost everybody, I believed then the conclusions of British investigators. But if this document is true (and we have seen no reason to believe that it is not), then the views usually shared about Litvinenko's death should be reconsidered.


He has nothing to do with, but with the alledgedly false assassination attempt on Beresovsky. The point being that the British government misled the public in both this case and relating to Litvinenko's death. Using similar methods to their accusations against Russia on the Skripals' poisoning.
The latter seemed indeed from the start much more dubious than Russian guilt in the poisoning of Litvinenko. And if even this instance falls, as it is widely used by British officials and media to show that it is a Russian habit to conduct such operations in foreign countries, nothing will remain to their claims.
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But if this document is true (and we have seen no reason to believe that it is not), then the views usually shared about Litvinenko's death should be reconsidered.
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What has the Hamburg Prosecutors Office got to do with a poisoning in London? Let them publish this document as they are threatening to do. I'll take a bet with you now that no such document will be published.

You can continue to believe that Russia had nothing to do with it if you like. The facts we've been told in the UK point virtually 100% to the two Russians [probably sanctioned by Putin] who left traces everywhere they went. It has gone through judicial procedure in the UK in the form of his inquest & the verdict can be read.

And remember, the Skripal's poisoning according to Russia, has been variously attributed to Novichok, fish gone off, ergot, or Buzz to name a few. There may be more. Do you really find this convincing?
 
hunck said:
What has the Hamburg Prosecutors Office got to do with a poisoning in London? Let them publish this document as they are threatening to do. I'll take a bet with you now that no such document will be published.
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I believe that there was a misuderstanding : the file has already been published. And, yes, it says what the Russian Embassy claims it says.
Bizarrely, the documents don't dispaly on the official link of the Russian Embassy. I couldn't find any English-speaking site where they can be ssen, I found this one (in French).
http://sayed7asan.blogspot.fr/2018/04/affaires-skripal-litvinenko-et.html
The conclusion of the German Prosecotor's report says (translated from German) :
"So were radioactive traces unearthed in the premises of firms "Erinys" and "Risk-Management", that Lugovoi and Kavtun had visited during their stay between 16. and 18.10.2006, and in the rooms of the hotels both had rented at the same time. Traces of polonium were also found on the body of Italian Mario Scaramella, whom Litvinenko must have met on 01.11.2006 before his meeting with Lugovoi and Kavtun. And finally the aforementioned traces were found too in Boris Beresovski's office.
2. The procedure will be ended for the reasons explained in Part 1, under the provisions of Paragraphe 170, Article 2 of the Federal Criminal Code."

hunck said:
And remember, the Skripal's poisoning according to Russia, has been variously attributed to Novichok, fish gone off, ergot, or Buzz to name a few. There may be more. Do you really find this convincing?
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No, but the British version is not less unconvincing, as it varied and produced contradictory statements. Notably, we don't have a clue of how the Skripals are really doing. At least one thing appears certain, the presence of a BZ compound, which would account for the strange behaviour of Sergei Skripal according to witnesses. Its presence rules out nobody, but it is strange indeed.
 
hunck said:
And remember, the Skripal's poisoning according to Russia, has been variously attributed to Novichok, fish gone off, ergot, or Buzz to name a few. There may be more. Do you really find this convincing?
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They'll go with swamp gas or sightings of the planet Venus next. Or maybe it was chemtrails, Alien Big Cats, or bigfoot attack residue, who knows?
 
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Analis said:
I believe that there was a misuderstanding : the file has already been published. And, yes, it says what the Russian Embassy claims it says.
Bizarrely, the documents don't dispaly on the official link of the Russian Embassy. I couldn't find any English-speaking site where they can be ssen, I found this one (in French).
http://sayed7asan.blogspot.fr/2018/04/affaires-skripal-litvinenko-et.html
The conclusion of the German Prosecotor's report says (translated from German) :
"So were radioactive traces unearthed in the premises of firms "Erinys" and "Risk-Management", that Lugovoi and Kavtun had visited during their stay between 16. and 18.10.2006, and in the rooms of the hotels both had rented at the same time. Traces of polonium were also found on the body of Italian Mario Scaramella, whom Litvinenko must have met on 01.11.2006 before his meeting with Lugovoi and Kavtun. And finally the aforementioned traces were found too in Boris Beresovski's office.
2. The procedure will be ended for the reasons explained in Part 1, under the provisions of Paragraphe 170, Article 2 of the Federal Criminal Code."


No, but the British version is not less unconvincing, as it varied and produced contradictory statements. Notably, we don't have a clue of how the Skripals are really doing. At least one thing appears certain, the presence of a BZ compound, which would account for the strange behaviour of Sergei Skripal according to witnesses. Its presence rules out nobody, but it is strange indeed.
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OK, so the document exists & has been published but nobody's seen it apart from Russia - have I got that right? I repeat my question: what does the Hamburg Prosecutor's Office have to do with a poisoning in London? The answer would appear to be "nothing".

Your link is to a blog. None of the documents on that link are from the Hamburg Prosecutor's Office. There are documents from the Russian Federation Prosecutor's Office but none from Hamburg.

Contrary to your statement, the British version has not varied at all - Novichok most likely perpetrated by Russians of some sort, although there's no concrete proof exactly who. Also we do know that Yulia has recovered enough to leave hospital. I notice she hasn't been keen to meet Russian officials or go back to Russia where she is still a citizen. Sergei's condition we don't currently know. The presence of BZ which you say is "certain", certainly isn't certain. It's another Russian assertion to be added to fish gone off & ergot.
 
hunck said:
OK, so the document exists & has been published but nobody's seen it apart from Russia - have I got that right? I repeat my question: what does the Hamburg Prosecutor's Office have to do with a poisoning in London? The answer would appear to be "nothing".

Your link is to a blog. None of the documents on that link are from the Hamburg Prosecutor's Office. There are documents from the Russian Federation Prosecutor's Office but none from Hamburg.

Contrary to your statement, the British version has not varied at all - Novichok most likely perpetrated by Russians of some sort, although there's no concrete proof exactly who. Also we do know that Yulia has recovered enough to leave hospital. I notice she hasn't been keen to meet Russian officials or go back to Russia where she is still a citizen. Sergei's condition we don't currently know. The presence of BZ which you say is "certain", certainly isn't certain. It's another Russian assertion to be added to fish gone off & ergot.
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Next up we'll hear Nessie left the Loch, marched across the country, and bit them. I mean hey, Nessie could have done that, right? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
hunck said:
OK, so the document exists & has been published but nobody's seen it apart from Russia - have I got that right? I repeat my question: what does the Hamburg Prosecutor's Office have to do with a poisoning in London? The answer would appear to be "nothing".
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It appears obvious to me : if, as the statement from the prosecutor of Hamburg asserts, findings of polonium traces show that it was present on somebody that Litvinenko had met beofre his meeting with Lugovoi and Kavtun, implying that it was already on Litvinenko before he met them, then accusations against Lugovoi and Kavtun of having poisoned Litvinenko collapse. Whatever posterior findings in their hotel rooms and the plane they flew say. The question would be why those traces were found, the Russians have always claimed that they were planted or made-up, which would indeed appear to be a plausible explanation. Certainly, a manipulation of this magnitude would imply the involvment of the British secret services. An organisation with the means to mount this kind of set-up.

hunck said:
Your link is to a blog. None of the documents on that link are from the Hamburg Prosecutor's Office. There are documents from the Russian Federation Prosecutor's Office but none from Hamburg.
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The alleged document is from the Hamburg Prosecutor's Office, and is signed by the Prosecutor of Hamburg. Its conclusions are based on the evidence unearthed during the investigation. Now, if you refer to the fact that it was published by the Russian Prosecutor's Office, it is true. The only thing I can say is that it was published almost one month ago, and that German authorities as far as I know have not contested its authenticity and claimed that it was a fake.

hunck said:
Contrary to your statement, the British version has not varied at all - Novichok most likely perpetrated by Russians of some sort, although there's no concrete proof exactly who.
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You're almost right on their assertions about those two issues, but that's all ; they have widely varied relating to the circumstances, and they have lied on the authentification of the origin of the novichok used.

hunck said:
The presence of BZ which you say is "certain", certainly isn't certain. It's another Russian assertion to be added to fish gone off & ergot.
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According to the Swiss laboratory, it was indeed present. Which asks, why was it not detected by British laboratories. Additionnally, as BZ is an hallucinogenic, it could account why Skripal was described as acting in a weird way.
A summary of many inconsistencies and variations in the British official conspiracy theory :
http://www.theblogmire.com/the-uk-governments-skripal-conspiracy-theory/
 
An interesting find on the use of Novichok in the USA (definitely widely known outside Russia) :
http://truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/novichok-delivery-system-patented-in-the-us/

Evidence – Novichok Delivery System Patented in The US
22nd April 2018 / United Kingdom
Screen-Shot-2018-04-21-at-16.07.48.png

By TruePublica: We wrote back on 9th April that: “The Skripal Novichok poison affair has fooled almost no-one with a slightly questioning mind and an internet connection. The entire story would make an epic egg-on-face Inspector Clouseau classic worthy of Peter Sellers at his best. The plot includes a delusional Russian despot attempting to assassinate an ageing retired ex-spy in Britain where the end result was an international scandal, a dead cat, two starved guinea pigs and a lot of unemployed diplomats.”

The Porton Down scientific findings only went as far as to say: “Blood samples from Sergei Skripal and Yulia Skripal were analysed and the findings indicated exposure to a nerve agent or related compound. The samples tested positive for the presence of a Novichok class nerve agent OR CLOSELY RELATED AGENT.

Theresa May, Boris Johnson, politicians from all tribes along with the false mouthpiece of the establishment – the mainstream media – unquestioningly supported the case for dragging the UK into the centre of a global crisis, just as they did when Tony Blair blatantly lied to the world and supported the Americans in creating the human hellhole that much of the Middle East now represents.

The evidence provided to a more critically minded public was little more than dubious accusations supported by ambiguous expressions such as “highly likely,” and “suspected” – forcing the government into the highest propaganda mode we have seen in over a decade. The lessons that should have been learned from the Chilcot Enquiry, that actual evidence is needed prior to acting – completely ignored by all.

Journalists such as The Guardian’s Johnathan Friedland is a perfect example: He refers to those who critically ask questions about the famed White Helmets, the chemical weapons attacks in Syria or the Salisbury Novichok attack with a rushed asthmatic certainty that everyone is a conspiracy theorist without even as much showing any evidence to the contrary:

“That claim, which has been repeatedly debunked, was instantly applauded and spread by the same crowd of pro-Russia voices on the far left and far right who have served so dutifully as Assad’s online cheerleaders. To them, Waters was a hero for daring to speak an unpopular truth. For everyone else, a once admired musician had joined the ranks of conspiracist cranks and apologists for a murderous dictator.”

People like Friedland have completely ignored the actual evidence provided by Robert Fisk, the Independent newspaper journalist with 40 years mid-east experience that there was no chemical weapons attack in Douma. He has ignored ex-ambassadors such as Peter Ford and Craig Murray, with huge experience in these regions.

Friedland wrote in 2003 – “that war (Iraq) is needed to topple a cruel tyrant who has drowned his people in misery. In this view, the coming conflict is a war of liberation which will cost some Iraqi lives at first, to be sure, but which will save many more. It will be a moral war to remove an immoral regime. To oppose it is to keep Saddam in power.”

A million innocents lost their lives, millions more displaced and Iraq has since sided with Syria, Iran and Russia because of this type of absolute slavish devotion to those who turned out to be mass genocidal murderers.

As ever though, deliberately overlooked or more likely ignored was that Russia had submitted evidence that the Novichok nerve agent was produced and patented in the United States as a chemical weapon in 2015, Russia’s Permanent Representative at the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) Alexander Shulgin said this some two weeks ago. That information just washed over the heads of his counterparts and the media while they looked the other way.




Search Google.patents.com reveals dozens of patents in the USA with Novichok involved

We were not satisfied with Russia’s story on the basis that they would, of course, defend themselves regardless of the truth, so unlike everyone else we looked. Half an hour later we found over 80 patents of the 140 that Russia said were applied for. The ones we found revealed the word Novichok in 81 patents as part of the patent document filing in the United States.

This doesn’t mean that all patents actually involved the nerve agent itself, but it does suggest that this deadly substance is at least available, particularly as none of these patents go back further than 2002 and some were applied for as recently as 2016 and one we found was granted as late as last November.

Without delving that deeply, due to time constraints, we found several patents of particular interest. The first is entitled:

Biological active bullets, systems, and methods
The abstract or introduction to the patent which was filed in April 2013 reads as follows:
“A novel biological active bullet able to be discharged from a firearm, the ammunition essentially comprising a bullet in a cartridge, the bullet associated with/containing at least one biological active substance, along with a method of use of delivering with this bullet at least one biological active substance having at least one biological effect in the target upon impact.”
The patent documentation is lengthy but includes the broad description of: “including, but not limited to, chemically active substances, biologically active substances, radioactive substances, thermodynamically active substances, and pharmaceutically active ingredient substances, and any combinations of active substances thereof; and capable of delivering this at least one active substance to/within a target, including, but not limited to, a mammal, such as a human.”

This document states the patented bullet-like projectile – may or may not cause a wound depending on its material manufacture and can deliver all manner of poisons, viruses and substances that can kill or maim.

The substance Novichok is specifically mentioned as one of a list of nerve agents that could be delivered by the patented bullet projectile

“The projectile as set forth in claim 1 wherein at least one active substance is selected from nerve agents, including, but not limited to, organophosphates , such as G-agents, including tabun (GA) , sarin (GB) , soman (GD) , cyclosarin (GF) , and GV, V-agents, including EA- 3148, VE, VG, VM, VR, and VX, Novichok agents, and any combinations thereof.“
The assumptions one can take from this patent is that A) Novichok can be manufactured in the United States and B) there are a number of delivery methods, one of which is specifically designed to hit a single desired target. Not forgetting this is an invention of the USA.

Other methods of delivery where the Novichok nerve agent are specifically mentioned as part of the patent documentation is a Powder Dispersion Device and Reactive Absorbent Materials filed in May 2016.

Examples include, “without limitation (list shortened), Agent 15 (BZ), ammonia, arsenic pentafluoride, boron tribromide, boron trichloride, hydrogen cyanide, nitrogen mustard (HN-1, HN-2, HN-3), and a Novichok agent.”

Contrary to what we have been told about the deadly nature of Novichoks, there is a Nerve Agent Antidote patent filed in 2013 that was granted 14th November 2017. Another is for methods of detection and another for protection against the neurotoxin Novichok.

Why would so many patents be filed in the first place (in America) if there had never been any intention of their use?

There is more to come on this story – for sure.

Main Image – Patent Powder Dispersal Device – filed 2013, patent pending for the delivery of nerve agents, specifically, Novichok and sarin: Examples of nerve agents may include G series such as Tabun (GA), Sarin (GB), Soman (GD), Cyclosarin (GF), GV series such as Novichok agents, GV (nerve agent), V series such as VE, VG, VM, and the like. Source: Powder Dispersal Device and method
 
Analis said:
It appears obvious to me : if, as the statement from the prosecutor of Hamburg asserts, findings of polonium traces show that it was present on somebody that Litvinenko had met beofre his meeting with Lugovoi and Kavtun, implying that it was already on Litvinenko before he met them, then accusations against Lugovoi and Kavtun of having poisoned Litvinenko collapse. Whatever posterior findings in their hotel rooms and the plane they flew say. The question would be why those traces were found, the Russians have always claimed that they were planted or made-up, which would indeed appear to be a plausible explanation. Certainly, a manipulation of this magnitude would imply the involvment of the British secret services. An organisation with the means to mount this kind of set-up.

The alleged document is from the Hamburg Prosecutor's Office, and is signed by the Prosecutor of Hamburg. Its conclusions are based on the evidence unearthed during the investigation. Now, if you refer to the fact that it was published by the Russian Prosecutor's Office, it is true. The only thing I can say is that it was published almost one month ago, and that German authorities as far as I know have not contested its authenticity and claimed that it was a fake.
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That's a big if. So where is this official statement from the Hamburg Prosecutors Office, signed by the Prosecutor of Hamburg? We haven't seen it - have you? And to repeat my question a 3rd time - why are Hamburg officials getting involved in a poisoning in London? What have they got to do with it all? We haven't had an answer to that either.

There's a 2 page letter in the blog link in your post #283 purporting to be someone from Hamburg, dated 2009. It isn't written on officially headed paper from the prosecutors office so there's no way of telling the origin. It could be written by anyone anywhere & my German isn't good enough to know what it's saying. If it was actually from the Hamburg Prosecutor I would have no doubt it would be written on official headed paper.



Analis said:
According to the Swiss laboratory, it was indeed present. Which asks, why was it not detected by British laboratories. Additionnally, as BZ is an hallucinogenic, it could account why Skripal was described as acting in a weird way.
A summary of many inconsistencies and variations in the British official conspiracy theory :
http://www.theblogmire.com/the-uk-governments-skripal-conspiracy-theory/
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No, the Swiss lab have not said this. They have released a statement which can be read on their twitter feed which I quoted previously. They never mention BZ. They said very little other than along the lines of 'the Porton Down statement can be relied on'. PD don't mention BZ either. Here's the Swiss lab statement:

Only OPCW can comment on this assertion. But we can repeat what we stated 10 days ago: We have no doubt that Porton Down has identified Novichok. PD - like Spiez - is a designated lab of the OPCW. The standards in verification are so rigid that one can trust the findings.
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I don't pretend to know that much about the Skripals case - there's certainly many unanswered questions. The Litvinenko case is much more cut & dried in my opinion & your references to letters supposedly from the Hamburg Prosecutor haven't convinced me otherwise.
 
Sergei Skripal has been dishcharged from hospital.
 
hunck said:
Sergei Skripal has been dishcharged from hospital.
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Glad both him and his daughter have apparently overcome their ordeal but can understand their reluctance to be contacted by the Russian authorities.
 
They reduced the sugar content of Novichoc and added an artificial sweetener instead because of EU rulings.
But yeah. The NHS is pretty awesome. Especially the hospital next to Porton Down ‘Science Park’.
 
I never thought a few weeks in intensive care could be described as a good thing...
 
Mythopoeika said:
I had thought they were instant, certain death. But I guess I'm wrong.
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Yes, that's what I'd thought. What we were always told by the media anyway, right? Whenever nerve agents were mentioned (not just this case).


GNC said:
I never thought a few weeks in intensive care could be described as a good thing...
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I don't think anyone's saying it's a good thing? Of course it's not. But... it's just very surprising, wouldn't you agree? That not one but two people can survive a deadly nerve agent. *shrugs*
 
Schrodinger's Zebra said:
Yes, that's what I'd thought. What we were always told by the media anyway, right? Whenever nerve agents were mentioned (not just this case).




I don't think anyone's saying it's a good thing? Of course it's not. But... it's just very surprising, wouldn't you agree? That not one but two people can survive a deadly nerve agent. *shrugs*
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Deadly nerve agents have to be applied to the victim in an amount that is deadly. The LD50 (amount to kill 50% of the time) is low for a poison of course, but It's not a single molecule.
 
kamalktk said:
Deadly nerve agents have to be applied to the victim in an amount that is deadly. The LD50 (amount to kill 50% of the time) is low for a poison of course, but It's not a single molecule.
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Ahhh, I see., thanks for the info. Which then begs the question... why would they do it and not kill the Skripals? (Assuming they deliberately didn't kill them, rather than just made a mess of it, of course). What is to be gained by doing it - is that what we should be asking instead?
 
Schrodinger's Zebra said:
Ahhh, I see., thanks for the info. Which then begs the question... why would they do it and not kill the Skripals? (Assuming they deliberately didn't kill them, rather than just made a mess of it, of course). What is to be gained by doing it - is that what we should be asking instead?
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To send a message.
 
Schrodinger's Zebra said:
Ahhh, I see., thanks for the info. Which then begs the question... why would they do it and not kill the Skripals? (Assuming they deliberately didn't kill them, rather than just made a mess of it, of course). What is to be gained by doing it - is that what we should be asking instead?
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Assassins could merely have failed, the occams razor solution.
 
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