Owzabout That Then? The Jimmy Savile Revelations & Aftermath

[stu neville]

My mum used to say ‘He’s always running and doing charity work. Almost as if it’s a penance’.

I remember watching TOTP and Jim'll Fix it as a kid, and both my mother and grandmother mentioning at the time that they thought there was something off about him, and indeed when the revelations started coming out my mum immediately said "I said so, didn't I?". However, there's an interesting bit of cognitive dissonance going on here: when Rolf Harris was first charged, her reaction was completely the opposite. We'd occasionally spotted Harris in real life as we lived not far from the studio where they made Rolf's Cartoon Club etc and I think he kept a flat near there, but as far as I know she'd never met him or anything, however she refused to believe any such allegations even after he was convicted as "he seems such a nice man."

Then again people don't like celebs to be anything other than that which they believe / want / need them to be, even when the difference is entirely normal and objectively fine: note the number of late middle-aged women who went berserk when Barry Manilow finally came out, despite his never really having tried all that hard to hide it. They got rid of records, deleted playlists, you name it. On that basis, blind eyes aren't that extraordinary, certainly among the emotionally invested, but professionally....

 

[LymeswoldSnork]

However, there's an interesting bit of cognitive dissonance going on here: when Rolf Harris was first charged, her reaction was completely the opposite. We'd occasionally spotted Harris in real life as we lived not far from the studio where they made Rolf's Cartoon Club etc and I think he kept a flat near there, but as far as I know she'd never met him or anything, however she refused to believe any such allegations even after he was convicted as "he seems such a nice man."

I was astonished about Rolf too. I thought it had to be a mistake, until he tried to claim that he didn't realise he'd ever been in Cambridge because the van taking him to It's A Royal Knockout had blacked-out windows.

Were there ever any rumours about him?

 

[stu neville]

Were there ever any rumours about him?

He was quite "handsy" with female production staff (I've heard this first hand) but again in the 70s this was - sadly - normal, if not acceptable behaviour, and as far as anyone knew it was only with adults.

 

[CarlosTheDJ]

He was quite "handsy" with female production staff (I've heard this first hand) but again in the 70s this was - sadly - normal, if not acceptable behaviour, and as far as anyone knew it was only with adults.

My wife mentioned 'things' about Harris years before it all came out - he was a family friend of someone she knows and apparently he used to babysit for them.

 

[Ogdred Weary]

I remember watching TOTP and Jim'll Fix it as a kid, and both my mother and grandmother mentioning at the time that they thought there was something off about him, and indeed when the revelations started coming out my mum immediately said "I said so, didn't I?". However, there's an interesting bit of cognitive dissonance going on here: when Rolf Harris was first charged, her reaction was completely the opposite. We'd occasionally spotted Harris in real life as we lived not far from the studio where they made Rolf's Cartoon Club etc and I think he kept a flat near there, but as far as I know she'd never met him or anything, however she refused to believe any such allegations even after he was convicted as "he seems such a nice man."

Then again people don't like celebs to be anything other than that which they believe / want / need them to be, even when the difference is entirely normal and objectively fine: note the number of late middle-aged women who went berserk when Barry Manilow finally came out, despite his never really having tried all that hard to hide it. They got rid of records, deleted playlists, you name it. On that basis, blind eyes aren't that extraordinary, certainly among the emotionally invested, but professionally....

I'm just about young enough to have not smelt a rat about Savile, I stopped watching Jim'll Fix It before I was in my teens and would occasionally see him as guest host TOTP as a teen. There I paid him little heed, he just seemed like a naff has-been to me. I suppose he seemed "weird" but he was just a crappy old one-note personna to me and I dare say other people my age.

My parents and people older than myself have made some comments about "always knowing something was up" once the revelations came out. I dare say a fair few felt he was "off" in some way and smaller number probably had him pegged as some kind of pervert if not quite the monster he actually was; but I'm a little sceptical that all the people people making comments in hindsight did actually spot anything.

 

[escargot]

But if he did the seal of confession means the priest cannot repeat what they have heard during confession.
He was a Catholic and seemed to believe and he was obviously worried, to some extent at least, about going to a literal hell. I know it's not much but at least he lived his life in fear and if there is an afterlife we can hope he is in hell for all eternity.

Someone in the Netflix documentary said that when Savile was found dead, he had his fingers crossed on both hands.

I have read about Catholic children being taught to sleep in a certain respectful position to make them more acceptable to God should they die in their sleep. Perhaps the crossed fingers were a variation of this.

 

[Beresford]

Someone in the Netflix documentary said that when Savile was found dead, he had his fingers crossed on both hands.

I have read about Catholic children being taught to sleep in a certain respectful position to make them more acceptable to God should they die in their sleep. Perhaps the crossed fingers were a variation of this.

Never heard of that before. I was never instructed on how I should go to sleep.

 

[CALGACUS03]

The Savile documentary is being heavily advertised on Netflix, and while, on one level, I want to watch it, on another I'm repulsed by the man and can't thole* seeing even photographs of him.
I'll probaby force myself to watch it - just to try to understand how he got away with so much for so long.

* (transitive) Scottish and Northern England dialect
to put up with; bear

 

[escargot]

The Savile documentary is being heavily advertised on Netflix, and while, on one level, I want to watch it, on another I'm repulsed by the man and can't thole* seeing even photographs of him.
I'll probaby force myself to watch it - just to try to understand how he got away with so much for so long.

* (transitive) Scottish and Northern England dialect
to put up with; bear

Yup, while I couldn't wait to see the documentary the sight of Savile himself continuously repulsed me.
I coped by saying 'Look at that smug pervy twat!' 'I'd like to dig him up and shit on his mouldy rotting face!' and so on.

There's also satisfaction in planning a piss-flinging expedition to his grave.

The stone has gone - the actual process being described in the programme with great dignity by the funeral director involved - but the site of the interment can still be picked out.

 

[escargot]

The Savile documentary is being heavily advertised on Netflix, and while, on one level, I want to watch it, on another I'm repulsed by the man and can't thole* seeing even photographs of him.
I'll probaby force myself to watch it - just to try to understand how he got away with so much for so long.

* (transitive) Scottish and Northern England dialect
to put up with; bear

OK then, when I get over to Scarborough where my niece lives, and take a stroll over to Woodlands Cemetery, I will be offering both my own respects and, symbolically, those of @CALGACUS03.

 

[maximus otter]

OK then, when I get over to Scarborough where my niece lives, and take a stroll over to Woodlands Cemetery, I will be offering both my own respects and, symbolically, those of @CALGACUS03.

Crimes for which Jimmy Savile was tried and convicted: 0

Crimes committed by someone desecrating a grave: 1

maximus otter

 

[Ogdred Weary]

OK then, when I get over to Scarborough where my niece lives, and take a stroll over to Woodlands Cemetery, I will be offering both my own respects and, symbolically, those of @CALGACUS03.

I thought that they'd moved his body too?

 

[escargot]

I thought that they'd moved his body too?

No, because he had left instructions for concrete to be poured onto the coffin before the grave was filled in. It would be too expensive and disruptive to remove that.

The funeral director interviewed in the Netflix programme mentioned the epitaph Savile chose, 'It was good while it lasted.'

He knew what was coming out after his death.

 

[Ogdred Weary]

No, because he had left instructions for concrete to be poured onto the coffin before the grave was filled in. It would be too expensive and disruptive to remove that.

The funeral director interviewed in the Netflix programme mentioned the epitaph Savile chose, 'It was good while it lasted.'

He knew what was coming out after his death.

I knew about the concrete and the expense/complexity of removing the coffin. I wondered if they might think it was worth it given the extremity of feeling towards Savile.

 

[escargot]

I knew about the concrete and the expense/complexity of removing the coffin. I wondered if they might think it was worth it given the extremity of feeling towards Savile.

The feeling I got was that no one wanted to go to that expense. The hope was perhaps that the public could be fobbed off with the idea of Savile's remains suffering the ignominy of an unmarked grave.

Also, there were the huge heavy coffin and the actual decomposing remains to deal with. More trouble than it's worth, as they say.

Suits me. The removing and smashing of that ornate memorial symbolised public contempt and perhaps the victims took a little comfort from it. I hope so.

 

[escargot]

This is such a good thread.

I've recently re-read it and found it showing all the stages of a scandal that we'd expect - disbelief, dismissal and excoriation of victims, defence of historical misdemeanors as 'being of their time', grudging acceptance and so on.

Having recently posted about using a novelty Jim'll Fix It soap-on-a-rope to contemptuously wash my bumhole in the shower, I was pleased to notice that I'd already mentioned it years ago.
He didn't fool me.

 

[Ogdred Weary]

This is such a good thread.

I've recently re-read it and found it showing all the stages of a scandal that we'd expect - disbelief, dismissal and excoriation of victims, defence of historical misdemeanors as 'being of their time', grudging acceptance and so on.

Having recently posted about using a novelty Jim'll Fix It soap-on-a-rope to contemptuously wash my bumhole in the shower, I was pleased to notice that I'd already mentioned it years ago.
He didn't fool me.

Were you onto him immediately or did it take a while?

 

[escargot]

Were you onto him immediately or did it take a while?

When I was a kid in the '60s he was just there, like part of the Establishment.

As I grew older he came across as a creepy old git perving round teenagers on TV.
His constant references to 'dolly birds' and obvious sex-obsession were familiar to me as I was dealing with dirty old men in my own life. I knew it wasn't an act: he was normalising harassment with jovial, purportedly comical lechery.

Many men back then copied him. Can remember a regular sinking feeling on hearing that very term dolly bird because I knew whoever said it would be trying it on as soon as we were alone.
Often at work when I'd been purposely sent to collect the photocopying from a distant store room, say. Or even in a hospital sluice where I'd be washing bedpans.

As I've mentioned, when I was still a teenager an early autobiography of his confirmed my suspicions, after which time I openly loathed him.

I was criticised on'ere some years ago for being super-cautious about who I allowed near my children. Not letting adults stay overnight, meeting my kids' friends' families before letting my children spend time at their homes, checking out after-school clubs and so on.

No need to respond: I was right. Children can be subjected to the most appalling abuse because the offender has access to them and the trust of their parents. I wasn't taking the chance. Jimmy Savile taught me that.

 

[escargot]

I'm just about young enough to have not smelt a rat about Savile, I stopped watching Jim'll Fix It before I was in my teens and would occasionally see him as guest host TOTP as a teen. There I paid him little heed, he just seemed like a naff has-been to me. I suppose he seemed "weird" but he was just a crappy old one-note personna to me and I dare say other people my age.

My parents and people older than myself have made some comments about "always knowing something was up" once the revelations came out. I dare say a fair few felt he was "off" in some way and smaller number probably had him pegged as some kind of pervert if not quite the monster he actually was; but I'm a little sceptical that all the people people making comments in hindsight did actually spot anything.

He stood out because of all the Radio 1 DJs he was the only one who openly leched over teenage girls.
Not adult women, girls. That's what the rumours were about. Everyone knew he liked young teenagers because he said it himself over and over again. People found that creepy at the time.

Have to say that I wouldn't have let my own kids of any age alone near him or any other celebrity.
Abusers are clever though. Most people who hadn't met Rolf Harris didn't suspect him of perviness because he kept his gob shut about it.

 

[Earthly oddity]

He stood out because of all the Radio 1 DJs he was the only one who openly leched over teenage girls.
Not adult women, girls. That's what the rumours were about. Everyone knew he liked young teenagers because he said it himself over and over again. People found that creepy at the time.

Have to say that I wouldn't have let my own kids of any age alone near him or any other celebrity.
Abusers are clever though. Most people who hadn't met Rolf Harris didn't suspect him of perviness because he kept his gob shut about it.

I was really upset when I discovered what a pervert Rolf Harris was. I know I got taken to some stage show he did where he painted and sang, when I was a child. He did art programs for kids and I thought he was good at that.
I liked Animal Hospital and thought he was a nice man.
Then the story came out about what he was really like. The story about the daughter's friend saddened me. His daughter and wife must have known and been helping him keep his secrets. Awful.

 

[escargot]

The story about the daughter's friend saddened me. His daughter and wife must have known and been helping him keep his secrets. Awful.

No, the friend's family didn't know. Harris's family and hers were such good friends that he was allowed to be around her on the same basis as with his own daughter, like taking her swimming or on outings. He was trusted.

When Harris's daughter Bindi found out what had been going on she banged her head on the wall in despair.

 

[escargot]

Haha, I've just sat down to watch a bit of the Savile programme and have a bite to eat.

There are lots of clips of him, including the Have I Got News For You section where he's asked 'You used to be a wrestler, didn't you?' and he replies 'I still am. I'm feared in every girls' school in this country.'
The audience roars with laughter. Ian Hislop's look of baffled disgust is a sight to see.

Another segment has him asked by an unseen interviewer 'What are you up to at the moment?' to which Savile glibly replies 'What I'm up to is actually not getting caught, erm, avoiding...' and is interrupted with 'Unlike Gary Glitter of course! Er, allegedly!'

Savile gapes for a second, looks down and says 'Not getting caught...'
I wonder what came next!

 

[Krepostnoi]

Crimes for which Jimmy Savile was tried and convicted: 0

Crimes committed by someone desecrating a grave: 1

maximus otter

Are you suggesting that in all your long years of coppering you never once encountered a situation where what was legally correct was in conflict with what was morally correct?

 

[hunck]

Are you suggesting that in all your long years of coppering you never once encountered a situation where what was legally correct was in conflict with what was morally correct?

He also left out one important element:

Crimes which Savile committed. OK he was never tried or convicted & the numbers involved are unknown but no-one is doubting it. Well maybe max is.

 

[maximus otter]

Are you suggesting that in all your long years of coppering you never once encountered a situation where what was legally correct was in conflict with what was morally correct?

l’m failing to see anything either legally or morally correct in sousing with urine what one hopes is the correct grave.

Perhaps Escargot might consider expressing her revulsion at Savile’s alleged behaviour by a positive, material deed, such as donating a sum of money to a home for abused women?

maximus otter

 

[Giant R]

No, the friend's family didn't know. Harris's family and hers were such good friends that he was allowed to be around her on the same basis as with his own daughter, like taking her swimming or on outings. He was trusted.

When Harris's daughter Bindi found out what had been going on she banged her head on the wall in despair.

It is perhaps natural to assume that the families of offenders must suspect, but, when you think that many of us couldn't believe that Rolf Harris would do what he did, its easier then to understand how most would never believe their other halves or parents of being capable of it -especially when you consider how devious these people are.

 

[Krepostnoi]

l’m failing to see anything either legally or morally correct in sousing with urine what one hopes is the correct grave.

Idle question: can one desecrate an unmarked grave? Legally, I mean. I'm no lawyer, but an obvious defence springs to mind.

Morally speaking, is it correct? I can't say I find the idea reprehensible, in this case. Certainly, I wouldn't say it was incorrect. If anything, there ought to be more public expressions of revulsion, and this is a time-honoured gesture.

Perhaps Escargot might consider expressing her revulsion at Savile’s alleged behaviour by a positive, material deed, such as donating a sum of money to a home for abused women?

She may very well already have done, for all we know, and anyway it is none of our business. I certainly think there is less moral justification for asking someone to publicise their acts of charity. If they want us to know, they'll tell us.

ETA: speaking of time-honoured, "home" sounds extremely old-fashioned in this context.

 

[Earthly oddity]

No, the friend's family didn't know. Harris's family and hers were such good friends that he was allowed to be around her on the same basis as with his own daughter, like taking her swimming or on outings. He was trusted.

When Harris's daughter Bindi found out what had been going on she banged her head on the wall in despair.

I think the parents found out from the girl though, according to a documentary (the netflix one? I watched the channel 5 one too recently so can't be sure).

Both Harris' wife and daughter appeared to be supporting him when he went to court though....That is why I assumed they either couldn't believe it was true or were complicit by staying silent and not intervening in any way.

I just can't work out what their lives have been like. I feel his wife may well be a victim of Harris, in that she didn't feel able to leave him despite knowing what he was up to. I can imagine his daughter might not have wanted to believe her father was into children or young teenagers and may have interpreted his behaviour with the friend as jokey/innocent because she probably wouldn't want to believe there was anything in it.....if she noticed anything at all that is (he may have been very careful to get the friend on her own if possible so as not to be seen?)

It really saddened me to have to accept that he was so horrible. When I was an undergraduate (89-93) I found a swimming safety video in the library with Rolf Harris and children. I thought it was hilarious to watch the cheesy presentation style and the funny brown swimming trunks/fashions of the day....It really should have been withdrawn and replaced with something more up to date by then for the teacher training students to use.....

And I also found Gary Glitter funny - although I had heard a story about him (not involving underage people, but it did make me wonder about what he might be like/what his childhood/family life was like). In the 80s and 90s he had a kind of retro/funny/student gigs type of career. I never thought he was attractive in any way in the 70s - funny/OTT but not sexy (unlike Bowie/Bolan) glam rock. Didn't he marry a young lady who was supposed to be a fan of his? Which makes me wonder why noone wondered about him earlier......

 

[maximus otter]

a) Idle question: can one desecrate an unmarked grave? Legally, I mean. I'm no lawyer, but an obvious defence springs to mind.

b) Morally speaking, is it correct? I can't say I find the idea reprehensible, in this case. Certainly, I wouldn't say it was incorrect. If anything, there ought to be more public expressions of revulsion, and this is a time-honoured gesture.

a) It’s definitely an offence under the Cemeteries Clauses Act 1847:

“59: Penalty on persons committing nuisances in the cemetery.

Every person who shall…shall commit any nuisance within the cemetery…”

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/10-11/65/section/59

Depending on the exact circumstances, it could well amount to “outraging public decency”, or a Breach of the Peace.

b) Shades into “Non-violent Direct Action”, which in turn shades into vigilantism.

Besides, lots of people find lots of different things objectionable, from lots of different points of view, and we might find things being soiled with bodily waste that we would rather weren’t so fouled.

maximus otter

 

[Krepostnoi]

a) It’s definitely an offence under the Cemeteries Clauses Act 1847:

“59: Penalty on persons committing nuisances in the cemetery.

Every person who shall…shall commit any nuisance within the cemetery…”

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/10-11/65/section/59

Depending on the exact circumstances, it could well amount to “outraging public decency”, or a Breach of the Peace.

b) Shades into “Non-violent Direct Action”, which in turn shades into vigilantism.

Besides, lots of people find lots of different things objectionable, from lots of different points of view, and we might find things being soiled with bodily waste that we would rather weren’t so fouled.

maximus otter

Thanks for the update on (a) - it certainly seems clear-cut.

Point (b) seems considerably less clear-cut, to me. Your final sentence is clearly a risk, and as you say there is a wide variety of things to find objectionable, and people to find them so. On the other hand, as even a cursory glance at history will suggest, no-one ever achieved change by asking the powers-that-be nicely. That said, October 1917 (as was) in flavour-of-the-month country Russia is a clear-cut example of how not asking nicely can both 1) achieve change and 2) not in a good way.

As ever, though, it's not a binary, and I'd certainly hope there would always be space in public discourse for people to speak up and say "That [whatever "that" may be] is not acceptable, change it." I couldn't find it within me to be too judgemental of someone chucking eggs, tomatoes, milkshakes and the like at politicians/other public figures - ego is a driving force for them, and the prospect of mild public humiliation ought to be a corrective to their wilder excesses. On the other hand, flinging more noxious substances, including bodily excreta, at any living individuals would cross my personal line of acceptability, as would targeting private individuals going about their lawful business with anything, noxious or not. Private individuals on a political demonstration? Tough one - a bit of verbal sparring seems fine, but the egging seems to be, well, over-egging the matter.

As the old Bolsheviks used to chant:
"What do we want?"
"Gradual change!"
"When do we want it?"
"In due course!"