The Abolition Of Cash

[Stormkhan]

The thing is though that, should the power go off, most shops will have to close anyway. Electrically powered doors, lighting, freezers will all go off, and so will the tills. So we couldn't accept cash anyway, because the tills won't work, and we aren't allowed customers in because of the health and safety implications of the doors not working, the fire alarm not working and the freezers being off.

1) Electrically powered door are designed - for safety - to be easily opened in a power cut.
2) If you keep the door shut of a freezer, big or small, then it has a large amount of time to de-frost. I.E. Items inside it come to room temperature.
2) When a till has no electrical power, the OWNER has a key which unlocks the drawer. Taking the electrical power from ANY cash till does not 'lock' it into the thing.

You think that, in a severe emergency, no one can do anything? Especially the staff, who will be hit by public ire, as well as their employers?

 

[catseye]

1) Electrically powered door are designed - for safety - to be easily opened in a power cut.
2) If you keep the door shut of a freezer, big or small, then it has a large amount of time to de-frost. I.E. Items inside it come to room temperature.
2) When a till has no electrical power, the OWNER has a key which unlocks the drawer. Taking the electrical power from ANY cash till does not 'lock' it into the thing.

You think that, in a severe emergency, no one can do anything? Especially the staff, who will be hit by public ire, as well as their employers?

Yes, the doors can be stuck open, but for health and safety reasons the public aren't allowed in if the doors aren't operational. We can't sell food from a non-operational freezer because temperatures have to be measured and monitored every half hour and if the temperature can't be guaranteed, then we can't say absolutely and for definite that the food is still safe. We can unlock the tills to access the drawers, but we can't process sales through those tills.

So the shop is closed.

 

[catseye]

Like I said, I was there the night the shop had to be closed because the electricity was cut off because of lightning strikes. So I know, absolutely, why the shop has to be closed in the case of power outages. And yes, we had to face the public ire, and yes, the management had to justify their actions to the public. But not to the shop owners, because they know how vulnerable we are.

 

[Tunn11]

Like I said, I was there the night the shop had to be closed because the electricity was cut off because of lightning strikes. So I know, absolutely, why the shop has to be closed in the case of power outages. And yes, we had to face the public ire, and yes, the management had to justify their actions to the public. But not to the shop owners, because they know how vulnerable we are.

And the thing with freezers in supermarkets is that the bloody customers keep opening them to take things out!

 

[AnonyJ]

A recent localised village-wide power cut affected a friend's restaurant - but they stayed open & trading for takeaways by lamplight. The kitchen uses propane tank gas, they had plenty of candles and rechargeable lamps. The cash till is a simple lockable drawer so they did some excellent business that night banging out hot meals - cash only!

I suggest we move this preparedness tangent over to the thread https://forums.forteana.org/index.php?threads/the-end-is-nigh-ish-preparing-for-emergencies.66986/ - I'll request that if you goodly folks agree?

 

[rmr975]

When I was young retailers glared at you for using plastic for low amounts. Now you get glared at by the drive through staff for wanting to use cash, lot of people seem to use their phones to pay for everything even if it's less than a quid.

 

[Stormkhan]

That's because 'in the old days', the banks charged a set transaction fee, rather than a percentage.
Using cash in drive-throughs is a bit of a nuisance - it relies on having a large amount of cash on the premises, the staff need to 'think' about giving change etc.
Let me be clear - I'm not for or against a cashless society. I see it as inevitable, ever since the technology surfaced. There's good and bad points about both cash and card.

 

[RaM]

Nothing is 100% secure threats are identified and security updates are applied
hopefully before someone finds a way to exploit it.

 

[Paul_Exeter]

When I was young retailers glared at you for using plastic for low amounts. Now you get glared at by the drive through staff for wanting to use cash, lot of people seem to use their phones to pay for everything even if it's less than a quid.

Yep, I still feel guilty paying by card for at my corner shop for some 50p carrots. However, there is one small corner shop that does charge a small fee for transactions under under £5.00

I won't name names, but I know someone running a small business that was almost 100% cash payments until card payments became commonplace. This caused them a problem as they were not declaring all of their income to HMRC, easy to do with their paper-based cashing up system and records. Sea fee was added to card payments as a deterrent rather than to cover costs - tut tut...

 

[RaM]

The future of the digital pound in your pocket,
https://www.gov.uk/government/consu...BxCBTPfK62UWmaoJA3_Rinsi0v4vW6G1o3EjkAdNH-3Po

 

[RaM]

The MID computer system the one Police use to check your car bike what ever is
insured was showing all vehicles un insured last night according to reports not checked
so dont know if its been sorted yet, question is it a system failure or has it been hacked,
if hacked and they have lost data this could lead to all sorts of problems for owners.
Will you get compensated? no will they still keep your details on the system? yes,

 

[Cochise]

Yep, I still feel guilty paying by card for at my corner shop for some 50p carrots. However, there is one small corner shop that does charge a small fee for transactions under under £5.00

I won't name names, but I know someone running a small business that was almost 100% cash payments until card payments became commonplace. This caused them a problem as they were not declaring all of their income to HMRC, easy to do with their paper-based cashing up system and records. Sea fee was added to card payments as a deterrent rather than to cover costs - tut tut...

This may be a bit controversial, but I believe for any system to succeed it has to have a little wriggle room. And if it doesn't (the Russian version of communism springs to mind) then it simply promotes a much more powerful vicious and cynical underclass who are eventually uncontrollable - and in the Russian example virtually took over the state for a few years after the communist regime crumbled. Hence Putin.

 

[catseye]

I won't name names, but I know someone running a small business that was almost 100% cash payments until card payments became commonplace. This caused them a problem as they were not declaring all of their income to HMRC, easy to do with their paper-based cashing up system and records. Sea fee was added to card payments as a deterrent rather than to cover costs - tut tut...

I wonder if this isn't the real reason behind 'them' wanting a cashless society? So very much harder to avoid tax liability when there's an absolute paper trail (well, not paper, because most of the banks have gone paperless which is a whole other subject, but you know what I mean).

 

[Mythopoeika]

I wonder if this isn't the real reason behind 'them' wanting a cashless society? So very much harder to avoid tax liability when there's an absolute paper trail (well, not paper, because most of the banks have gone paperless which is a whole other subject, but you know what I mean).

If that happens, there will be a surprise. Many small businesses and private individuals will go bankrupt and prices will rise.
As Cochise says, there has to be a bit of leeway to allow people to make any kind of profit at all.
I'm not condoning tax-fiddling at all, but I am saying we are generally being over-taxed. Tax is extracted for almost everything, then it is pissed up a wall.

 

[RaM]

That's why they are often up in arms about the rich saving thousands in tax
quit legally by using little known loop holes but refuse to close them.

 

[Mythopoeika]

That's why they are often up in arms about the rich saving thousands in tax
quit legally by using little known loop holes but refuse to close them.

Being 'up in arms' about loop holes for the rich is all just for show.
They never close the loop holes because many MPs are 'the rich'.

 

[Stormkhan]

I wonder if this isn't the real reason behind 'them' wanting a cashless society? So very much harder to avoid tax liability when there's an absolute paper trail (well, not paper, because most of the banks have gone paperless which is a whole other subject, but you know what I mean).

Sorry, but having run a business, kept legitimate accounts, and had no heinous tax liability, I really can't see a problem. We made profits, year on year.
I agree that the country has a fairly high tax regime, and it mainly falls on small firms ... who can't afford smart accountants to reduce the impact.
I think that the 'tax on small business kills small business' thing is misdirection. It almost recommends tax dodging ... and while HMRC will go easy on error, or honest mistake, it will absolutely punish active avoidance of paying ones obligations.
A firm not taking card payments may have many reasons to do so, but wanting to keep it 'off the books' just tells me that the owners are crooks*.
If you don't want to be fined for speeding, don't feckin' speed.
If you don't want to pay a parking fine, take the time to look and see where and when you can park.
Both cases can be appealed.
But the argument about not using card payments to dodge paying 'punishing' taxes hold no water to me.

* I admit, my experience may be different from others. But it irritates me to blame a business ventures failure on taxes, bureaucracy, health & safety gone mad, whatever, because ultimately when you set up in business - any business - you have to take these things into account. You might have a great idea for a shop but if you don't go into detail to see if it's viable, then it's success or failure is up to you!

 

[Yithian]

Being 'up in arms' about loop holes for the rich is all just for show.
They never close the loop holes because many MPs are 'the rich'.

This is fine, but let's not get into naming names unless there is a very tight link between the individual, his business interests and his resistance to financial loopholes.

You probably don't need reminding, but somebody asked for clarification.

 

[Mythopoeika]

This is fine, but let's not get into naming names unless there is a very tight link between the individual, his business interests and his resistance to financial loopholes.

You probably don't need reminding, but somebody asked for clarification.

I wasn't about to name names.

 

[catseye]

Sorry, but having run a business, kept legitimate accounts, and had no heinous tax liability, I really can't see a problem. We made profits, year on year.
I agree that the country has a fairly high tax regime, and it mainly falls on small firms ... who can't afford smart accountants to reduce the impact.
I think that the 'tax on small business kills small business' thing is misdirection. It almost recommends tax dodging ... and while HMRC will go easy on error, or honest mistake, it will absolutely punish active avoidance of paying ones obligations.
A firm not taking card payments may have many reasons to do so, but wanting to keep it 'off the books' just tells me that the owners are crooks*.
If you don't want to be fined for speeding, don't feckin' speed.
If you don't want to pay a parking fine, take the time to look and see where and when you can park.
Both cases can be appealed.
But the argument about not using card payments to dodge paying 'punishing' taxes hold no water to me.

* I admit, my experience may be different from others. But it irritates me to blame a business ventures failure on taxes, bureaucracy, health & safety gone mad, whatever, because ultimately when you set up in business - any business - you have to take these things into account. You might have a great idea for a shop but if you don't go into detail to see if it's viable, then it's success or failure is up to you!

This explains why YOU don't do it. But there are currently plenty of firms who are 'cash only' - yes, the affordability and availability of card reader machines might explain some of these, but not all. There are lots of 'cash in hand' workers too, window cleaners, house cleaners, decorators etc, and I don't think you can speak to the honesty of all of these. If cash is abolished, then all these people will either have to work for card payments - which will be traceable into their bank accounts - or stop working.

I run my accounts fairly tightly, everything in and out of my bank can be accounted for and my earnings are declared. But sometimes people buy the odd book in cash and I don't do receipts, then completely forget all about the entire encounter. So I know it happens.

 

[Stormkhan]

I take your point absolutely, Catseye. I really do.
However, there's nothing stopping a cash-only business from keeping accurate receipts that can be paper-trailed back. HMRC accept this 'proof'*. They ask if you're 'cash only' when setting up your self-employment account. Even the SAGE accountancy software - industry standard - gives you the ability to keep suitable accounts. You can write your own reciepts for your own records and these are accepted as 'source documents'.
Of course, wanting to run a business on a 'cash only' basis isn't an automatic declaration of criminality.
But abolishing cash is a long way off. And with the multitude of options to take card payment 'on the go' as it were, "then all these people will either have to work for card payments - which will be traceable into their bank accounts - or stop working." is a misdirection. You can always take cash payments.
Being traceable in their bank accounts isn't a bad thing, surely? And if you take cash payments then the 'trace-ability' begins when you pay that cash in. Ultimately, a cash-only firm is given the benefit of the doubt by HMRC, when it comes to honesty. It's only when some smart arses overdo it on the 'off the books' payments.
It's only fair to ask "If you keep posting accounts where you make a loss, why are you in the job?"

* Truly. They only care that all the figures add up. It's the empty bits, the ... gaps between money out and money in that set them asking questions.

 

[catseye]

I take your point absolutely, Catseye. I really do.
However, there's nothing stopping a cash-only business from keeping accurate receipts that can be paper-trailed back. HMRC accept this 'proof'*. They ask if you're 'cash only' when setting up your self-employment account. Even the SAGE accountancy software - industry standard - gives you the ability to keep suitable accounts. You can write your own reciepts for your own records and these are accepted as 'source documents'.
Of course, wanting to run a business on a 'cash only' basis isn't an automatic declaration of criminality.
But abolishing cash is a long way off. And with the multitude of options to take card payment 'on the go' as it were, "then all these people will either have to work for card payments - which will be traceable into their bank accounts - or stop working." is a misdirection. You can always take cash payments.
Being traceable in their bank accounts isn't a bad thing, surely? And if you take cash payments then the 'trace-ability' begins when you pay that cash in. Ultimately, a cash-only firm is given the benefit of the doubt by HMRC, when it comes to honesty. It's only when some smart arses overdo it on the 'off the books' payments.
It's only fair to ask "If you keep posting accounts where you make a loss, why are you in the job?"

* Truly. They only care that all the figures add up. It's the empty bits, the ... gaps between money out and money in that set them asking questions.

I think we're actually saying the same thing, Storm. Yes, if you want to play by the rules you absolutely can run a cash only business. Just as you can 'avoid' tax if you are paid only by BACS. It's just much easier to slip the odd payment under the counter if you deal in cash only. And if cash is completely abolished, this would have to stop.
And as to posting accounts where you make a loss - for the first ten years I was writing novels, I was making a loss. That wasn't to say I wasn't earning anything, just that I offset my expenses against incomings. So in the first years of setting up a business a lot of people will make a loss on paper. That doesn't mean they've made an actual loss, just that they've spent out a lot of their incomings on set up.

 

[Mythopoeika]

And as to posting accounts where you make a loss - for the first ten years I was writing novels, I was making a loss. That wasn't to say I wasn't earning anything, just that I offset my expenses against incomings. So in the first years of setting up a business a lot of people will make a loss on paper. That doesn't mean they've made an actual loss, just that they've spent out a lot of their incomings on set up.

This is very common with artists, writers, musicians and craftspeople.
Anything that is creative takes a long time to bear fruit.

 

[brownmane]

During the early times of the pandemic when only take out was allowed, some food franchises tried to prohibit the use of cash (because people were afraid that covid was spread through contact). The government quickly put a stop to this because it unfairly made food unavailable for poor people.

I have an issue (and this is a little off topic) that banks make billions in profit and charge those with little income, service fees. Most banks will forgo these fees if a person has a minimum balance, but those on welfare and disability pensions are not allowed to have a balance beyond a specific amount or they lose their income. Not that many would be able to save month to month.

Also, every transaction that is done, a service fee is charged. So it is more economical that people with little income deal in cash. Only one service fee for the one withdrawal rather than for each transaction as something is purchased.

I can't see having a totally cashless society anytime soon. It is interesting that studies done show that Canadians are one society who seem to have adopted the use of cashless transactions more quickly than other countries.

 

[Stormkhan]

And as to posting accounts where you make a loss - for the first ten years I was writing novels, I was making a loss. That wasn't to say I wasn't earning anything, just that I offset my expenses against incomings. So in the first years of setting up a business a lot of people will make a loss on paper. That doesn't mean they've made an actual loss, just that they've spent out a lot of their incomings on set up.

I know. The thing that HMRC sees as a red flag is if there is no progress. As long as those losses are 'on paper' and explainable, then it's no problem.
There was mutterings a couple of years ago from the DWP about putting in a 'cut-off' point for those who were self-employed. If, after three years, were still working at a loss then you'd lose your self-employed status and be forced to look for work. This was dropped thankfully.
I was always told a firm should run at a loss in the first year, draw even in the second and make a profit in the third if it were viable. This is fine in many fields but not all.

As I say, a cashless economy isn't viable any time soon. So I always listen to those (young and old) shaking their fists and proudly declaring "GRRR! Fight the banks! I'll always pay by card" and shake my head with sadness. I sympathise but, in the end, technology moves on and it happens whether we think it good or not.
It's not a matter of 'giving in the The Man' - I'll always use cash and card. But, recently, I've rarely needed to use cash. I know, it's the principal of the thing, but it this case all the banks need to do is wait for the nay-sayers to die out.

 

[FunkyTT]

I don’t know if this news made it to other countries, but this past September 10th Las Vegas casinos and ATM machines got hacked.

People could not get money and people could not get into their hotel rooms.

The casinos ending up paying a hack group called Scattered Spider 30 million dollars.

Are our banking accounts really safe ?

It seems the hackers get what they want.

Someone said in the UK the post office is the bank for most people, not so in the U.S.

As someone who like a little bit of online roulette.... Wow.... I had not heard about this!! The MSM kept that quiet didn't they !!!.... Those big casino's probably didn't want it out there that they had been hacked and effectively payed a ransom ...

Mind you 30mil is not a lot for Vegas casinos.

 

[RaM]

The hackers cards will be marked, it may go quiet but if I was them I would not
holliday in the US any time soon.

 

[Mythopoeika]

The hackers cards will be marked, it may go quiet but if I was them I would not
holliday in the US any time soon.

A lot of casinos are owned by crime syndicates. They'll find their own way of tracking these hackers down.

 

[Robbrent]

I don’t know if this news made it to other countries, but this past September 10th Las Vegas casinos and ATM machines got hacked.

People could not get money and people could not get into their hotel rooms.

The casinos ending up paying a hack group called Scattered Spider 30 million dollars.

Are our banking accounts really safe ?

It seems the hackers get what they want.

Someone said in the UK the post office is the bank for most people, not so in the U.S.

What they mean is with the closure of many Bank branches the Post Office has a deal with the major banks so that people can pay in cash etc through the Post Office, it's a service mainly used by the elderly

As an aside I was at a function on Saturday night, and the card reader at the bar was out of order, it caused chaos they managed to get it working again but not many people were carrying around larges amounts of cash

As for bank accounts being safe, where else are you going to store your money that's safer?

 

[Mythopoeika]

As for bank accounts being safe, where else are you going to store your money that's safer?

A hidden safe in the house.