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That's a big if. So where is this official statement from the Hamburg Prosecutors Office, signed by the Prosecutor of Hamburg? We haven't seen it - have you? And to repeat my question a 3rd time - why are Hamburg officials getting involved in a poisoning in London? What have they got to do with it all? We haven't had an answer to that either.
The answer seemed quite obvious : Kavtun had come from Hamburg, so the Prosecutor of Hamburg had juridisction to open a criminal procedure – which they alledgedly did (I personaly can't remember if I heard at the time if one was being conducted, but it seems likely, as it is a standard procedure in such a case).

There's a 2 page letter in the blog link in your post #283 purporting to be someone from Hamburg, dated 2009. It isn't written on officially headed paper from the prosecutors office so there's no way of telling the origin. It could be written by anyone anywhere & my German isn't good enough to know what it's saying. If it was actually from the Hamburg Prosecutor I would have no doubt it would be written on official headed paper.
Which seems a valid objection, but not fatal. Judiciary papers , as far as I can tell from personal experience, do not come with a complete official header on each page. It is possible that the file came with one or more official headed presentation page, as can be the case with official documents.

No, the Swiss lab have not said this. They have released a statement which can be read on their twitter feed which I quoted previously. They never mention BZ. They said very little other than along the lines of 'the Porton Down statement can be relied on'. PD don't mention BZ either. Here's the Swiss lab statement:
Only OPCW can comment on this assertion. But we can repeat what we stated 10 days ago: We have no doubt that Porton Down has identified Novichok. PD - like Spiez - is a designated lab of the OPCW. The standards in verification are so rigid that one can trust the findings.
Yes, they did agree that the Porton Down laboratory had found Novichok. It is less clear if they themselves detected it (although according to sputnik, Lavrov stated that they had). But in the statement is nowhere to be found a denegation that they identified BZ (and incidently, the assertion that they had has to be confronted with the reported behaviour of Skripal).

I don't pretend to know that much about the Skripals case - there's certainly many unanswered questions. The Litvinenko case is much more cut & dried in my opinion & your references to letters supposedly from the Hamburg Prosecutor haven't convinced me otherwise.
Neither am I convinced. But it does cast a doubt. The more important thing in my eyes is that I can not see a good motive for the Germans not having denied the authenticty of the letter (I personaly suspect that they agreed to its divulgation, just my 2 cent).

Assassins could merely have failed, the occams razor solution.
Well, they would really be the worst assassins in the world. And in great danger of retribution from evil-mastermind-behind-all-bad-things-in-the-world Putin.
And they spread enough Novichok to poison a police officer in addition of the Skripals, but not enough to kill Sergei Skripal ? The whole story appears more and more convoluted.

To send a message.
A message right in the middle of critical international tensions, with the consequences that a 10-year-old child could foresee ?
 
Yes, they did agree that the Porton Down laboratory had found Novichok. It is less clear if they themselves detected it (although according to sputnik, Lavrov stated that they had). But in the statement is nowhere to be found a denegation that they identified BZ (and incidently, the assertion that they had has to be confronted with the reported behaviour of Skripal).

I don't doubt that Lavrov stated they had. He simply invented it though.

Neither am I convinced. But it does cast a doubt. The more important thing in my eyes is that I can not see a good motive for the Germans not having denied the authenticty of the letter (I personaly suspect that they agreed to its divulgation, just my 2 cent).

It doesn't cast a doubt in my mind. You can read the report by Sir Robert Owen dated Jan 2016 which goes into exhaustive detail. It leaves no doubt it was Lugovoy & Kovtun who left a trail of contamination wherever they went. They had an unsuccessful attempt a few weeks before the fatal one & left contamination trails then as well. Kovtun even left traces in various visits to friends & ex-family members in his brief stop in Hamburg before flying to London.
 
So the Skripals are probably going to cease to exist...well, exist even less than they did.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...ffered-new-identities-with-cia-help-ztf896rnj
Sergei and Yulia Skripal offered new identities with CIA help
Curiously, the online reports of this latest development are dated 8 Apr 2018, and I'm only conscious of having heard about this on MSM news within the last week or so.

Sergei and Yulia Skripal will be offered new identities and a new life in America in an attempt to protect them from further murder attempts.

Intelligence officials at MI6 have had discussions with their counterparts in the CIA about resettling the victims of the Salisbury poisoning. “They will be offered new identities,” a senior Whitehall figure said.
 
It is good that both Skripals have recovered (did I see on the news that Sergei is also out of hospital now?) but not sure how Yulia can return to her homeland if she's got a new identity.

Plus... maybe I don't know that much about how new identities work, but surely lots of people know their faces from the news - so how easy will it be to become someone else?

Good luck to them anyway though.
 
It is good that both Skripals have recovered (did I see on the news that Sergei is also out of hospital now?) but not sure how Yulia can return to her homeland if she's got a new identity.

Plus... maybe I don't know that much about how new identities work, but surely lots of people know their faces from the news - so how easy will it be to become someone else?

Good luck to them anyway though.
He could grow a beard. She could wear a burkha. People would think they were Muslims.
 
"not sure how Yulia can return to her homeland if she's got a new identity."

Putin's regime won't last forever and we can but hope that Russia will become more libertarian eventually.
 
The head of the international Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons dismisses Russian conspiracy theory over attack on Sergei Skripal

speaking at Chatham House in London, Mr Üzümcü slapped down a conspiracy theory circulated by the Russian government claiming a different nerve agent could have been used.

Foreign minister Sergei Lavrov was among officials citing evidence from a Swiss laboratory to suggest that BZ was deployed and evidence had been covered up.

Mr Üzümcü said a precursor chemical of BZ and a blank sample was sent to all designated laboratories alongside real evidence taken from Salisbury to prove their tests were accurate.

“The BZ samples did not have anything to do with the Salisbury samples,” he added. “It was solely for checking the quality of the work.”

more at link
 
Interesting. Every time I look at the Independent website, I get attacked by a bitcoin miner bot, trying to use my PC for bitcoin mining.

Anyhoo. Whatever the nerve agent used, a state actor was responsible. Russia is still in the frame for that.
 
Interesting. Every time I look at the Independent website, I get attacked by a bitcoin miner bot, trying to use my PC for bitcoin mining.

That is interesting - do you notice it on other sites? It is a very clunky site, & it is owned by a Russian!

Can you stop the bots? How are you detecting them?
 
That is interesting - do you notice it on other sites? It is a very clunky site, & it is owned by a Russian!

Can you stop the bots? How are you detecting them?
My virus checker displays a message to tell me what is happening. Never seen it before.
 
It is interesting to know what Ümzücü really thinks when he is not using waffle and doublespeak :
https://www.rt.com/news/424928-uzumcu-opcw-skripal-prank/
Salisbury attack chemical can be produced by any state, even the US, OPCW chief tells prank callers
Published time: 24 Apr, 2018 02:28 Edited time: 24 Apr, 2018 10:32
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A nerve agent used in the attack on former double agent Sergei Skripal and his daughter can be produced by any country, including the US, Ahmet Uzumcu, OPCW head, told Russian pranksters, who called him posing as the Polish PM.

Uzumcu became a fresh target of the famous duo of Vovan and Lexus (Vladimir Kuznetsov and Alexey Stolyarov), who previously pranked such international figures as US envoy to the UN Nikki Haley, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan and NATO chief, Jens Stoltenberg.
The comedians posted what they said was their prank call with the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons Director-General on YouTube on Monday. They posed as Poland’s Prime Minister, Mateusz Morawiecki, to address the head of the international chemical arms watchdog on the claimed chemical attack in the UK and Syria.
Uzumcu took some time to address concerns of the caller, who he thought was the head of the Polish government, as the conversation lasted for more than 22 minutes. He told the pranksters that the mandate of his organization didn’t provide for establishing the place of origin of the substance, which the UK claims was employed against Sergei and Yulia Skripal in Salisbury on March 4.
However, the OPCW head pointed out that “according to our experts, it can be produced in any state.” This contradicts the British claims that Russia can be the only culprit due to the fact that A-234 or ‘Novichok’ was a Soviet-designed nerve agent.
“So it can be produced in any country?” the pranksters specified, with Uzumcu replying: “In theory – yes.” When asked if the US could’ve been the source of the Salisbury chemical, the OPCW head replied: “Absolutely.”
According to Uzumcu, A-234 can be produced “in any country where there would be some chemical expertise. The material, which is used –as I’m told by our experts – is accessible. That’s the problem we face with this toxic chemical.”
So, if he may complain that « the OPCW can not go into attribution », it is useless because what he lacks are not mainly the legal tools, but the material evidence to make an attribution, whatever he may suggest.
Another example of a country having produced Novichok :
http://www.voltairenet.org/article201015.html
Czech Republic produced Novichok
Voltaire Network | 6 May 2018
ligne-rouge.gif


During an televised interview broadcast on TV Barrandov, the President of the Czech Republic, Miloš Zeman (see photo), has indicated that he commissioned his secret services to produce a report on the Russian allegation that it was probably his country that had produced Novichok, the same substance used in Salisbury to poison the Russian agent Serguei Skripal and his daughter, Julia.

“We must conclude that our country has produced and tested an [agent of the class] Novichok, although [it had been produced] only in small quantities and then destroyed (…) It would be sheer hypocrisy on our part to claim that this was not the case (…) We do not need to lie”, he declared.

According to the military intelligence services, the poison was probably produced at the Institute for military research at Brno in November 2017, under code name A230.

In the first instance, the Prime Minister, Andrej Babiš, had violently denied that his country could have produced the type of substance used in the Skripal Affair. The British Prime Minister, Theresa May, had concluded from this that Russia had lied and that she, Russia, was guilty of attempting to poison Sergueï Skripal.

President Miloš Zeman is a lone voice in the European Union. He is the only head of State taking a position against the sanctions against both Syria and Russia.

Translation
Anoosha Boralessa
Annoucement followed by a shamefacedly attempt at refutation from Prime Minister, Andrej Babiš, except that he didn't refutate anything and was only piteously playing with words :
http://www.voltairenet.org/article201067.html
Novichok: Czech Prime Minister contradicts his President
Voltaire Network | 8 May 2018
ligne-rouge.gif


Contradicting the comments of Miloš Zeman (President of Czech Republic), the Czech Prime Minister, Andrej Babiš, tweeted: “The Czech Republic has never produced, developed nor even stocked any substance belonging to the Novichok group”.

Voltairenet-org_-_1-287-b4c81.jpg

In a communiqué, he made the following specific points:
• What was factually accurate was that his country had carried out a micro-synthesis of a substance belonging to the Novitchok group in the context of a military programme aimed at ensuring the protection of civilians and soldiers;
• This process of synthesis would not be known to be considered as the production or development of this nerve agent; and
• The statements of the Head of State rested on a misunderstanding. He made the following declaration: “The Novitchok A-230 is different to the A-234, which was used to poison Sergei Skripal in the United Kingdom”.

Translation
Anoosha Boralessa
So, in his denial that isn't, he confirms that his country has produced Novichok (in very small quantities, but did produce), and has the means to do it again. It would probably be shorter to list countries that have not produced or come into possession of one form of Novichok.
 
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It is interesting to know what Ümzücü really thinks when he is not using waffle and doublespeak :
https://www.rt.com/news/424928-uzumcu-opcw-skripal-prank/

So, if he may complain that « the OPCW can not go into attribution », it is useless because what he lacks are not mainly the legal tools, but the material evidence to make an attribution, whatever he may suggest.
Another example of a country having produced Novichok :
http://www.voltairenet.org/article201015.html

Annoucement followed by a shamefacedly attempt at refutation from Prime Minister, Andrej Babiš, except that he didn't refutate anything and was only piteously playing with words :
http://www.voltairenet.org/article201067.html

So, in his denial that isn't, he confirms that his country has produced Novichok (in very small quantities, but did produce), and has the means to do it again. It would probably be shorter to list countries that have not produced or come into possession of one form of Novichok.

Since Novichok is a chemical compound of some sort it stands to reason that anyone with the expertise & facilities could mix the necessary chemicals to produce it. He doesn't seem to be saying anything more than that.

Still, at least you seem to have dropped the BZ assertions for now.
 
Well, the explanation given by Ümzücü and the OPCW is, apparently, that it came from a misunderstanding, the source for the Russians being mistaken by the presence of BZ in control samples. But that doesn't necessarily mean the end of it, like a number of other UN agencies they are not neutral, and their word must be taken with a pinch of salt. In the case of the Chaikhoun (Syria) alleged chemical bombing in April 2018, they hadn't been legit, as well as in a number of instances of supposed use of chlorine gas. And what really matters is that for all a series of reason, Novichok does not appear consistent with the accusations.
 
It's enough to give us that déjà vu feeling isn't it?

A man and woman rendered unconscious and declared critically ill after exposure to "mystery substance" .
Taken to the same hospital as the Skripals.
Major incident declared.
Just 7 miles away from the Skripal attack.

Identity of the latest victims not yet released.
Wonder what the odds are on them being Russian ex-pats?
 
7 miles away isn't that near.
Unless...this is a place where the would-be Skripal assassins disposed of a few items?
 
Confirmed already? Blimey, that was quick.

Well not really. Once the boffins had identified the precise chemical fingerprint of Novichok a couple of weeks after the Skripals poisoning, it wouldn't be very difficult to compare that with analysis from this recent incident.
 
Sorry, never believed this story - still don't. The Remoaners - chief among which is the Chancellor of the Exchequer who ultimately controls Porton Down's payroll - have to have some story to try and scare us into staying in the EU. But it isn't working.
 
Just watching the press preview on Sky and they are hinting very strongly that the woman - Dawn Sturgess, deliberately touched something (possibly for a dare?) in a location linked to the original Skripal poisoning.
This suggests that the original decontamination process was not 100% effective. The fact that she was recently in a homeless shelter and her partner Charly Rowley is a recovering heroin addict, seems to be a red herring.
This appears to be residue left over or dumped (as per Mythopoeika's suggestion) from the original attack.
 
Well not really. Once the boffins had identified the precise chemical fingerprint of Novichok a couple of weeks after the Skripals poisoning, it wouldn't be very difficult to compare that with analysis from this recent incident.

Not quick then?

The startling thing about this entire episode is how it dropped off the radar once the propaganda value began to fade. I mean come on, we apparently have at least one rogue Russian wandering around with a potentially lethal nerve agent, but no updates on how the search for the perpetrator is going. I'm not asking for details, maybe just a bit of reassurance that the stoical guardians of our liberty are leaving no stone unturned etc. It was almost an act of war for God's sake!

Surprised we haven't been warned to watch for dodgy looking characters with snow on their boots.

No...it's mostly a load of bollocks. I'm amazed how anyone could swallow the whole story without gagging at least once. But anyway, each to their own I suppose.

Lastly, do you have a link for the positive identification? I understood that the symptoms that this latest couple are showing are similar to the symptoms that the Skiprals showed, and that was all our overlords had to go on at present.
 
I'm late to the party cos I've only just heard about this tonight; here in the Zebra household we were flabbergasted that this has come up again. Reading the comments up-thread it does rather seem to be an accidental poisoning as opposed to another deliberate attack by Russia/whoever. So yeah, if this is as a result of something not being cleaned properly by the powers that be, then surely heads will roll, as it were?

But then again... (and cognitively I'm not at my best tonight, so forgive me if this is mentioned in the BBC articles) but
was there any reason to decontaminate this new area in the first place? I mean, the decontamination and investigation, as I understand it, was all taking place in Salisbury. Is this not the first we've heard of this new location in connection with the whole Novichok event?

Reading the link to the first article about the latest poisoning...
Wiltshire's Police and Crime Commissioner Angus Macpherson said the police had worked hard at "containing any risk that might be there".

"There's no reason to think it's connected with matters of last month," he said.

...I bet he's wishing he hadn't said now that it's been confirmed as Novichock (can't remember if this link was posted already https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44719639)

It's very curious. And the idea that the woman touched something on purpose for a dare? *shakes head*


The startling thing about this entire episode is how it dropped off the radar once the propaganda value began to fade. I mean come on, we apparently have at least one rogue Russian wandering around with a potentially lethal nerve agent, but no updates on how the search for the perpetrator is going. I'm not asking for details, maybe just a bit of reassurance that the stoical guardians of our liberty are leaving no stone unturned etc. It was almost an act of war for God's sake!

That is, unfortunately, typical of today's news stories. They're only in the public eye for as long as the news channel (be it BBC or Sky or whatever) deem it to be what they want us to know. Then they move onto the next 'big thing' and those of us who are awake and aware are left wondering what on earth happened to such-and-such event.

Have you noticed how there never seems to be more than one huge story in the news at any one time? It almost seems manufactured...
I'm waiting for the day when two huge events do happen at once, just to see how they cope :D
 
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