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The Pyramids Of Giza

Lb8535 said:
Must remember that those folk had absolutely unlimited slave labor to grind infinite blocks to spec.
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And unlimited food to feed them whilst using copper chisels and not having yet invented the wheel yet able to move blocks weighing sometimes up to hundreds of tons up an incline using bamboo and wood scaffolding.
 
kesavaross said:
And unlimited food to feed them whilst using copper chisels and not having yet invented the wheel yet able to move blocks weighing sometimes up to hundreds of tons up an incline using bamboo and wood scaffolding.
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I've read about it demonstrated by modern archeologist-recreators. Bronze age in Egypt was about 3100, earliest pyramid was about 2600 so they had something a little better than copper to use. I also doubt they fed them generously but except in years of famine Egypt did pretty well for food.
 
kesavaross said:
And unlimited food to feed them whilst using copper chisels and not having yet invented the wheel yet able to move blocks weighing sometimes up to hundreds of tons up an incline using bamboo and wood scaffolding.
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If lack of a wheel is a limiting factor then I imagine it gets invented asap :) less so where it isn't a bottleneck.

Yes, power to control access to food is a key factor. But it doesn't have to be unlimited. It just has to be enough.
 
A society that hasn't invented the wheel yet can move copper chiseled exact fitting blocks of stone weighing up to several hundreds of tons? And then position them dead accurately. It beggars belief. Something is not right about the theories as to how the pyramids were built. Even an idiot can work that one out yet that is what we are told about how they were built. I can offer no explanation except to say what we've been told is ridiculous.

So how many slaves did it take? And how or why is it assumed it was slaves? Just because we are told so? Lets start off with a 50 tons block of stone and no wheel or wheels. Reduce it to 10 tons. How would that be moved just a foot? How many 'slaves' would be needed for that one block? And then up an incline? With no wheel? Multiply that by hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of 10 ton blocks as an example? The explanation does not fit what occurred. Maybe Charlton Heston and Hollywood can explain it.

As with many things to do with history, the explanations given don't add up yet as a people, we are programmed to accept what the experts tell us just because we've been told they are experts by other experts.

There are pyramids all over the planet. Even in Mexico. Small ones buried by time with only the tops sticking out. Google pyramids in China. Some are even fenced off to stop public access. What ever the purpose or reason for pyramids, it is not what we're told. What their purpose was or who built them or when or why and how, I haven't a clue but it's not definately what we're told it was for aka burials.
 
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kesavaross said:
A society that hasn't invented the wheel yet can move copper chiseled exact fitting blocks of stone weighing up to several hundreds of tons? And then position them dead accurately. It beggars belief. Something is not right about the theories as to how the pyramids were built. Even an idiot can work that one out yet that is what we are told about how they were built. I can offer no explanation except to say what we've been told is ridiculous.

So how many slaves did it take? And how or why is it assumed it was slaves? Just because we are told so? Lets start off with a 50 tons block of stone and no wheel or wheels. Reduce it to 10 tons. How would that be moved just a foot? How many 'slaves' would be needed for that one block? And then up an incline? With no wheel? Multiply that by hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of 10 ton blocks as an example? The explanation does not fit what occurred. Maybe Charlton Heston and Hollywood can explain it.

As with many things to do with history, the explanations given don't add up yet as a people, we are programmed to accept what the experts tell us just because we've been told they are experts by other experts.

There are pyramids all over the planet. Even in Mexico. Small ones buried by time with only the tops sticking out. Google pyramids in China. Some are even fenced off to stop public access. What ever the purpose or reason for pyramids, it is not what we're told. What their purpose was or who built them or when or why and how, I haven't a clue but it's not definately what we're told it was for aka burials.
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We have their logbooks on building them.

https://forums.forteana.org/index.php?threads/the-pyramids-of-giza.4948/post-1603793
 
kesavaross said:
There are pyramids all over the planet. Even in Mexico. Small ones buried by time with only the tops sticking out. Google pyramids in China. Some are even fenced off to stop public access. What ever the purpose or reason for pyramids, it is not what we're told. What their purpose was or who built them or when or why and how, I haven't a clue but it's not definately what we're told it was for aka burials.
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When ancient people decided they wanted to build something big and durable out of stone, a pyramidal shape was quite simply the most intuitive, logical and stable design possible.
Start with a square foundation, then plonk subsequent levels on top, each in the same shape but diminishing.
No real surprise that all ancient architects, whether Egyptian, Meso-American or Chinese, reached the same conclusion.
 
A couple of things here.
The pyramid builders did not employ slavery, there was a committal of labor as part of civic duty. This was well recorded.
The labour was highly organised into work gangs, with complex structures for division of tasks. This is also well recorded and correlates to markings found on blocks in various buildings.
The methodologies used might still be under slight discussion, but overall, there is little mystery left in how they were built and the answer is supremely good organisation.
Recent discoveries of papyrus records show fairly comprehensively just how sophisticated the operations were. There's a good summation of it here: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/hist...ng-mining-farming-economy-pyramids-180956619/
 
Lb8535 said:
Must remember that those folk had absolutely unlimited slave labor to grind infinite blocks to spec.
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kesavaross said:
So how many slaves did it take?
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“…veteran archaeologist [Zahi Hawass] stated that saying the construction of pyramids was done by slaves is a ridiculous opinion…”

https://www.egypttoday.com/Article/4/88439/Hawass-‘The-Great-Pyramids-were-not-built-by-slaves’

“Contrary to popular belief, it wasn’t slaves who built the pyramids.”

https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/were-the-egyptian-pyramids-built-by-slaves/

“…there is another misconception about pyramid construction that’s plagued Egyptian scholars for centuries: Slaves did not build the pyramids.

The best evidence suggests that pyramid workers were locals who were paid for their services and ate extremely well. We know this because archaeologists have found their tombs and other signs of the lives they lived. “

https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/who-built-the-egyptian-pyramids-not-slaves

“The pyramids, the world’s largest structures up until the 20th century, were not built by slaves.”

https://historyofyesterday.com/myth-debunked-the-pyramids-were-not-built-by-slaves-3d6b3a84337d

Etc.

maximus otter
 
kesavaross said:
A society that hasn't invented the wheel yet can move copper chiseled exact fitting blocks of stone weighing up to several hundreds of tons? And then position them dead accurately. It beggars belief. Something is not right about the theories as to how the pyramids were built. Even an idiot can work that one out yet that is what we are told about how they were built. I can offer no explanation except to say what we've been told is ridiculous.
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There isn't a fixed order to things, it's what is needed. Yes, technology builds on technology but there's nothing that says it /has/ to be a certain way in a certain number of steps.

The model you are using seems to be a bit out of date and sounds like what is said to be how it happened in books which intend to explain how it was all refugees from Atlantis.

I think the slave thing comes partly from the biblical model. Not that that mentions pyramids :)
 
Frideswide said:
There isn't a fixed order to things, it's what is needed. Yes, technology builds on technology but there's nothing that says it /has/ to be a certain way in a certain number of steps.

The model you are using seems to be a bit out of date and sounds like what is said to be how it happened in books which intend to explain how it was all refugees from Atlantis.

I think the slave thing comes partly from the biblical model. Not that that mentions pyramids :)
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What fascinates me, whether it's the Pyramids, Fantastic Cathedrals, Stately homes, Roman aqueducts... is the logistics of it all.

The stones had to be quarried (no dynamite or pneumatic drills etc), then taken to the site, maybe miles away. Anyone who has picked up a relatively small stone to build with, (even if it's not being cut/shaped into a work of art) knows that it is hard work to do it all day.
The metal for the tools has to be mined and then smelted- which uses a lot of resources- and very high temperatures have to be achieved for this, constantly as well.

The builders have to be fed and clothed, water has to be available for mortars and drinking/washing (especially in the heat of Cairo), and conversely the cold and wet of our climate has to be overcome, (or you just worked in it), sleeping accommodation had to be built, scaffolds had to be made and tranported to the site, horses/camels had to be fed and watered, boats had to be made to transport the stones and goods, cranes had to be made, rope had to be made.... and all the while farmers had to still be growing crops, making beer, cheese, bread- making clothes....the list goes on.

I also suspect that a lot of the 'experts' wouldn't know one end of a hammer from the other.
 
maximus otter said:
Herodotus. Who - oddly - mentioned neither slaves nor Jews.

maximus otter
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Thanks for that material. All interesting. However. The fact that the peons shoving those huge blocks around were being fed and maintained some esprit de corps does not rule out forced labor. DeMille was obviously enhancing history based just on the real dating of the buildings, which is to a time clearly before the Hebrews-in-bondage period (and Herodotus would have been well after it, so different labor source.) Slavery permeated most societies, and demonstrably ancient Egypt; I suspect that those given actual tombs and grave ornaments were the architects and engineers, not the guys pulling on the hoists. They could have moved the blocks using techniques that can be reproduced and had a whole bunch of people available to do it, which hopefully greatly weakens the "aliens did it with gravity-modifying mechanisms now lost to us" argument. The wheel though is in evidence in military equipment of around 2400 but would not have been useful in sandy areas.
 
Lb8535 said:
The wheel though is in evidence in military equipment of around 2400 but would not have been useful in sandy areas.
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*nodding*

and in eg the Andes , there is limited level ground.
 
Mythopoeika said:
Couldn't find the right thread to dump this in... interesting further ramblings about how the stones were carved:
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Also, though, we have to remember that it's one thing for someone in modern times to try and replicate what the ancients did when they've had a good nights sleep in a comfortable bed, a full stomach, wearing protective clothing, having taken modern medicine etc as opposed to tiredness, hunger, aches/cuts/broken bones/bad backs, wearing flimsy sandals (or even barefoot), working in 40-50c heat for hours at a time.....
Mind you, maybe it's the power of 'garlic and onions' as the Greeks used to call the Egyptians. (And the beer which was more like food of course).
 
My Dad saw the Egyptian Pyramids when he was young, he said standing at the base of the Great Pyramid was absolutely astounding - he had a hard time believing that this huge construction was built thousands of years ago, using simple methods. Looking at the blocks themselves, it seemed to defy belief that they were moved into place with ropes and ramps.
 
Almost certainly been mentioned on this thread before, but we should never forget that the pyramid builders weren't less intelligent than us, they just had more basic technology. The Great Pyramid was a work of genius, and calling the construction methods "basic" is probably vastly over-simplifying what actually happened, with details and techniques long forgotten today.
 
Ronnie Jersey said:
My Dad saw the Egyptian Pyramids when he was young, he said standing at the base of the Great Pyramid was absolutely astounding - he had a hard time believing that this huge construction was built thousands of years ago, using simple methods. Looking at the blocks themselves, it seemed to defy belief that they were moved into place with ropes and ramps.
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Funny enough that's what my mate told me when he worked in Egypt a few years ago and how all the Pyramids were in the same spec and the precision of them all was mind blowing.
 
SimonBurchell said:
Almost certainly been mentioned on this thread before, but we should never forget that the pyramid builders weren't less intelligent than us, they just had more basic technology. The Great Pyramid was a work of genius, and calling the construction methods "basic" is probably vastly over-simplifying what actually happened, with details and techniques long forgotten today.
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Oh I didn't mean that they were less intelligent than people today, I think what they did was incredible, one can only imagine us building something like the Great Pyramid without cranes, trucks, electrical machinery, drills, generators, food delivery services -
Unless they did have equipment like that?
 
kamalktk said:
We have their logbooks on building them.

https://forums.forteana.org/index.php?threads/the-pyramids-of-giza.4948/post-1603793
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We do indeed have one logbook of Merer. But nothing in it supports Egyptological theories. Indeed, the belief that Khufu ruled only 20 years is positively refuted by a mention that he had already been king for 27 years. There is no support for ramps or any other modern theory. The only thing that is supported was our belief that stones were taken by boat across the Nile to Giza. We already knew for a fact the stones originated on the other side of the river so this is hardly a revelation.

To my knowledge no Egyptological theories of any substance have been supported for over a century.
 
markclaire said:
Hall Of Records

This subject absolutely fascinates me.

I've tried, over some time, to read as much info as possible on this mysterious chambers that may or may not exist under the Pyramids of Egypt.

I remember seeing a documentary once where they sent a small camera down a shaft and discovered a door way, and beyond that a chamber they believed was flooded with water. I can't remember if they could see a door the other side.

It does all seem very hush hush regarding this. Maybe it is just the subject matter, or maybe the Egyptian authorities aren't too keen on this room being found, since it could, in a sense, destroy religion as we know it.

Has anyone found any websites or footage regarding this? It is the stuff of day dreams as to what they may/may not find in there, if they ever find it.

RS
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Claim on today's Quora that Zahi Hawass had indeed gained access to the Tomb of Birds and the legendary Hall of Records and had been selling off its artefacts to private collectors:

"Just like Zahi Hawass and the other pundits playing lip service. They know goddamn well what is down there. You need to pick up a copy of Andrew Collins’ book about his recent (2008) misadventures with Zahi and the Rediscovery of the Tomb of the Birds and a shaft beneath the plateau.

Andrew and his now ex wife, applied for permits to excavate or just analyze certain areas of Giza. The Archaeology Ministry granted them initially, but when they arrived, they pulled his license and told him he was not allowed to film on the plateau either. Obviously they were waiting for a bribe, but Collins is not a fancy Harvard Academic with some Huge Bankroll, he was self financed. Despite the setback they snuck into the Tomb they were looking for through a parallel shaft. What he discovered is mind boggling, and connects several other pieces together in a way that is essentially conclusive.

The of the Tomb of Birds is a Natural cave, which has been hollowed out. He and his wife took pictures farther back and found a larger chamber deep inside. At the rear a passage led deeper into the Plateau, but was blocked about halfway down by trash from the surface. Much of it was modern rubbish from the 1970’s till today. It appeared someone else had been in here recently, and piled this up to prevent later interlopers from getting any deeper. Zahi Hawass, you scumbag we know what you have done! This passage way leads eventually to the Semi Mythical Hall of Records under the Sphinx. The really interesting thing was this narrow passageway was plastered on walls and ceiling with ribs to resemble the inside of a snakes body.

The man named Zahi Hawass is fully to blame for all of the recent shortcoming in Egyptian Archaeology. Zahi is now the head of the Egyptian Antiquities Authorities, and essentially has been granted exclusive license to rewrite history to benefit his family. This corrupt, creep is also a pathological liar, with the worst memory possible. To this day he adamantly denies ever going into the Sphinx, despite filming a Fox Special in 1999 called “Inside the Sphinx” where they climb inside the Sphinx through the hatch in the head. What a piece of shit. To top it off he found out from Bedouin spies that the Collins were inside the Bird Tomb and had them charged with serious crimes about six months after the fact. Despite the clear evidence that Hawass has been selectively reporting his finds and activity in Giza, this reinforces existing claims he has been selling artefacts secretly to private collectors. This man is a dangerous thug and must be removed from authority by any means. He represents a clear and real threat to the material culture of the plateau and the integrity of Genuine Egyptian Archaeology, as well as the factual world historical timeline."

https://kingofegypttours.quora.com/...hinx-and-in-the-Great-Pyramid-and-have-closed
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
Claim on today's Quora that Zahi Hawass had indeed gained access to the Tomb of Birds and the legendary Hall of Records and had been selling off its artefacts to private collectors:

"Just like Zahi Hawass and the other pundits playing lip service. They know goddamn well what is down there. You need to pick up a copy of Andrew Collins’ book about his recent (2008) misadventures with Zahi and the Rediscovery of the Tomb of the Birds and a shaft beneath the plateau.

Andrew and his now ex wife, applied for permits to excavate or just analyze certain areas of Giza. The Archaeology Ministry granted them initially, but when they arrived, they pulled his license and told him he was not allowed to film on the plateau either. Obviously they were waiting for a bribe, but Collins is not a fancy Harvard Academic with some Huge Bankroll, he was self financed. Despite the setback they snuck into the Tomb they were looking for through a parallel shaft. What he discovered is mind boggling, and connects several other pieces together in a way that is essentially conclusive.

The of the Tomb of Birds is a Natural cave, which has been hollowed out. He and his wife took pictures farther back and found a larger chamber deep inside. At the rear a passage led deeper into the Plateau, but was blocked about halfway down by trash from the surface. Much of it was modern rubbish from the 1970’s till today. It appeared someone else had been in here recently, and piled this up to prevent later interlopers from getting any deeper. Zahi Hawass, you scumbag we know what you have done! This passage way leads eventually to the Semi Mythical Hall of Records under the Sphinx. The really interesting thing was this narrow passageway was plastered on walls and ceiling with ribs to resemble the inside of a snakes body.

The man named Zahi Hawass is fully to blame for all of the recent shortcoming in Egyptian Archaeology. Zahi is now the head of the Egyptian Antiquities Authorities, and essentially has been granted exclusive license to rewrite history to benefit his family. This corrupt, creep is also a pathological liar, with the worst memory possible. To this day he adamantly denies ever going into the Sphinx, despite filming a Fox Special in 1999 called “Inside the Sphinx” where they climb inside the Sphinx through the hatch in the head. What a piece of shit. To top it off he found out from Bedouin spies that the Collins were inside the Bird Tomb and had them charged with serious crimes about six months after the fact. Despite the clear evidence that Hawass has been selectively reporting his finds and activity in Giza, this reinforces existing claims he has been selling artefacts secretly to private collectors. This man is a dangerous thug and must be removed from authority by any means. He represents a clear and real threat to the material culture of the plateau and the integrity of Genuine Egyptian Archaeology, as well as the factual world historical timeline."

https://kingofegypttours.quora.com/...hinx-and-in-the-Great-Pyramid-and-have-closed
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I've heard so many bad things about this guy.
 
I thought that Zahi Hawass had been removed from his post in Egypt archaeology due to a change in politics in the country, and thus has zero to do with any archaeological work permissions. He advertises hosting tours in Archaeology magazine, but this thread is the first place that I've ever heard claims of him doing anything worse than getting his robot camera stuck in the Sphinx on live tv. I'd also think if he had a repulation for thievery outside that Quora claim that he would not be leading those big tours of Egypt as per the advertisements.
 
MrRING said:
I thought that Zahi Hawass had been removed from his post in Egypt archaeology due to a change in politics in the country, and thus has zero to do with any archaeological work permissions. He advertises hosting tours in Archaeology magazine, but this thread is the first place that I've ever heard claims of him doing anything worse than getting his robot camera stuck in the Sphinx on live tv. I'd also think if he had a repulation for thievery outside that Quora claim that he would not be leading those big tours of Egypt as per the advertisements.
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I had heard that after a few months of political disfavour he had been reinstated. The worst I've heard is that his ego will not allow him to tolerate others making discoveries. I think he has held back egyptology enormously.
 
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